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Post by frienduff on Oct 7, 2020 14:05:50 GMT -5
And we dont need no rome either . Thats right . the lambs NEED JESUS and our bibles . PRAISE THE GLORIOUS LORD .
I do not look to the Apocryphal books for absolute truth on anything, but the 14 books included in the 1611 KJV Bible called Apocrypha are not Catholic books. The main reason they were not considered fully authoritative was because there were no copies in Hebrew, only Greek. That disqualified them when they were considered as part of the Old Testament. I have never considered those books especially dangerous like many other extra-Biblical books, especially gnostic heresies, but they should never be looked at as the inerrant Word of God. The only books that should be seen as inerrant are the 66 books of the Protestant recognized canon.
I have read some of them , and they are not inerrant Word of GOD . They may have some truths and all , but they got some of mens wisdom and story telling in them as well . |
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Post by frienduff on Oct 7, 2020 18:34:13 GMT -5
Thats right my friend . We look to the bible for truth . Yes indeed . Let us rejoice in the Lord .
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Oct 7, 2020 20:36:16 GMT -5
Let me just add that I'm not battling John personally on this. John is a brother who loves the Lord. He's doing his best to make sense of big ideas, and I truly admire his zeal for knowledge. No matter if I succeed in changing John's mind or not, I won't be mad at him. this isnt a salvation issue. no need for anyone to get their emotions flared here.... if you are wrong it wont change anything, and if you are right it wont change anything.
I am kinda on the fence as i see truth in your words... but this is how i was taught and i am trying to figure out if its "the original sin doctrine" or not...
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
but Adam lived to be 900 years old. His Spirit died. its like a landline phone and you dont pay the bill... phones still works, but the line is dead. and thats why we need Jesus.... why we need His Spirit in us when we get saved.
the whole part you say about sin comes in later i just dont know. i am going to meditate and pray about it first. it dont change what i believe... but if i end up accepting what you say it would add a layer to what i already believe. like an onion.
edit: i guess maybe to sme extent i do believe the original sin thingy. idk for sure tho. i just read the bible and any literature i find that goes with my studies.
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PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
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Post by PG4Him on Oct 8, 2020 7:01:29 GMT -5
Here's some food for thought about Genesis 3. If Adam spiritually died that day, why did he continue in a dialogue with the Lord, and why did the Lord prophesy over him? Furthermore, why were they removed from the garden? Lest they eat the tree of life and live forever. In other words, lest they reverse the curse of death that came to their bodies. Before that day, there's no sign that Adam was supposed to be mortal at all. He died that day because he became mortal. The very concept of death entered creation at that time. The words "spiritual death" are added to Genesis by teachers.
Also, when we read God's words about the curse put on Adam, we don't find "spiritually dead" as part of the curse. We don't find spiritual separation from God as part of the curse. We find that planet earth is damaged, crops will be precarious, hard work will be required to survive, and bodies return to dust upon death. Show me anywhere in Genesis any kind of teaching about Adam's children being born in a state of unbelief.
When Paul mentions Adam in 1 Corinthians 15, what is he teaching? Resurrection of the dead in bodily form. Not spiritual rebirth, but actual immortality.
For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. -- Romans 5:13:14
If death reigned from Adam to Moses, and this is spiritual death, then we'll have to explain Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and Jacob. Again it's almost as if this is speaking of mortality. Before there was a law of Moses to judge people for, yet Abraham had to die like a mortal, why? Not because Adam's guilt was imputed to Abraham, but because Adam's mortality was.
Have another look at Romans 5. Paul didn't say all are born in sin, all are made of sin, or any such. He said all people end up sinning. The natural course of human life is to become a sinner and die. Read Romans 5 through this lens and see if it doesn't make sense.
Also, I will make this challenge. Aside from David (who was clearly one of God's elect) saying sin was involved in his conception, show me any Bible passage that says babies are spiritually dead and guilty of sin.
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Post by Giller on Oct 8, 2020 11:58:16 GMT -5
We have inherited the sin nature, now that does not mean that we have reached the age of accountability at birth though, of course not.
Do you think there is a specific age for everyone that is the age of accountability? 13? 20?
I do not look at a certain age, and it is probably different for everyone, some it may be 5, others 4, others 6, who knows. But God knows. |
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Post by Giller on Oct 8, 2020 12:26:09 GMT -5
Under the old covenant, people who believed, when they died, did not go to heaven, but rather to a place called paradise which was under the earth, and there was a gulf between hell and paradise.
Mat 12:40
(40) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
1Pe 3:18-20
(18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Luk 23:43
(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
On the day Jesus died, Jesus said he would be with the thief on the cross, in paradise.
No one was born again under the old covenant.
And God can speak to a person who has a dead spirit, which he spoke to us, to lead us unto Christ as an unbeliever.
Joh 3:3-5
(3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
(4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
(5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
In order for a man to be able to be born again, the resurrection had to take place, and also the Holy Ghost had to be sent back.
1Pe 1:3
(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
So obviously under the old covenant, the resurrection had not yet taken place, therefore no-one was born again, for we are begotten again by the resurrection of Jesus, Jesus, Jesus !!!!!!!
And you cannot enter into the kingdom of God unless you are born again.
Joh 3:8
(8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Act 2:2
(2) And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
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Post by Giller on Oct 8, 2020 12:28:08 GMT -5
The savior had to come, and the cross had to take place, and so did the resurrection.
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Post by Giller on Oct 8, 2020 12:55:47 GMT -5
Rom 5:12-15
(12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
(14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
(15) But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
If you look at the context of these scriptures, you will see that it is covering from the time period of Adam, unto the giving of the law.
And it mentions until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law, nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses.
The written law came from Moses, but they still had the law that was in their hearts from the period of Adam to Moses.
This death is talking about spiritual death, and then it talks about the free gift in verse 15, which we are saved by grace through faith.
Death also reigned after Moses, just here it was covering the time of Adam to Moses.
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Post by frienduff on Oct 8, 2020 15:05:45 GMT -5
Rom 5:12-15 (12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (15) But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. If you look at the context of these scriptures, you will see that it is covering from the time period of Adam, unto the giving of the law. And it mentions until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law, nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses. The written law came from Moses, but they still had the law that was in their hearts from the period of Adam to Moses. This death is talking about spiritual death, and then it talks about the free gift in verse 15, which we are saved by grace through faith. Death also reigned after Moses, just here it was covering the time of Adam to Moses. Yes and JESUS confirms it . Think about this giller . JESUS said and He who beleives in me SHALL NEVER DIE . Not speaking of natural death , SPIRITUAL death . You are right my friend . Now sound those praises OUT unto the Glorious LORD . We were ALL dead , Spiritually dead , TILL we came to FAITH IN JESUS . YES indeed . PRAISE the GLORIOUS KING . LET all the lambs bellow out songs of JOY unto the LORD . |
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Post by frienduff on Oct 8, 2020 15:08:56 GMT -5
And its confirmed in mathew chapter twenty seven . AFTER JESUS rose from the grave , some saw the old saints , old beleivers ressurected in the city . It says so .
JESUS was the first born from the dead . WHEN HE ROSE , all those who had died in faith years back , Rose up with him . It says some folks saw these ressurected ones . Read mathew twenty seven .
AND NOW , from then on , ANYONE who died in the faith , went to be with JESUS . SING to the KING everyone . SING TO THE KING .
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Post by frienduff on Oct 8, 2020 15:10:57 GMT -5
I know it is a mystery . Cause they saw MOSES and ELIJAH on the hill . But it says JESUS was the first one into heaven . HE said NO MAN has ascended into heaven
BUT the SON of man . HE was the first . I suppose MOSES and ELIJAH and others were at that place giller described . Though i sure do not understand this all .
BUT I DO understand this , TIME TO PRAISE THE KING . YEAH , i understand that real clear . PRAISE TIME . HANDS UP and let the LORD be praised .
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Post by John on Oct 8, 2020 18:34:38 GMT -5
John you're not quite understanding my view of this. I don't say children are in a neutral state until they commit a willful sin. It's not that they have a blank slate. I'm saying their souls commune with God in the womb, spiritually alive, abiding in the love of Jesus their creator, until human life begins its war on them. Scripture says God knits us in the womb. He's there with us creating us. We know Him at that time. Luke said John the Baptist leapt when he heard Mary's voice in the womb. Babies are spiritually alive. They worship Jesus in the womb. But they lose that connection over time and grow hardened as human life takes its toll. Thus by the age of 3 or 4 they are already drifting toward sin. Their naughtiness can be waived for a while, but not forever. All who live long enough to make any sort of independent decision have sinned. It doesn't start that way, but the flesh wears us down. Observe Romans 7. The flesh wages war on the Spirit, and our soul is caught in the crosshairs. It's unfair to make a caricature of this where a 13 year old drops dead the day after his birthday. I'm not talking about a legalistic deadline. I'm talking about spiritual death in childhood that must be reversed by regeneration. Notice it's called REgeneration. We were alive, then dead, then made alive forever in Christ. Just like the prodigal son. We must kill our human nature once and for all to exist as a human abiding in Christ. Just because the Mormons have wacky ideas about an overcrowded heaven, that isn't an argument against my view. I'm not the one who says original sin began with Augustine. That's what all of its proponents say. John MacArthur publicly admits his theology came by way of Augustine. Cletus himself said when you Google original sin you get Augustine. He is widely credited as the one who taught it -- and his writings do not appeal to any previous respectable Christian teachers, aside from random books like Edras. Augustine himself didn't even say it was "really" taught by men like Clement. We know it came from Augustine's gnosticism because it was verbatim gnosticism. Human flesh bad -- contact with flesh bad -- souls live in flesh -- souls bad in the womb. That was his logic. You can literally see the stepping stones from gnosticism to original sin. As for the fruit that grows from it, yes that matters. Imagine Christianity with no OSAS, no "stuck on sin" Christians who say they can't stop sinning, no LGBT churches because God made them that way, no Westborogh Baptists boycotting funerals, no violence in Christian lands because it's okay to kill lost people, and no massive falling away in Baptist churches where young Christians lose their faith because sin is unbreakable and God looks like a monster. We have Augustine to thank for all of this. He gladly takes the credit, and his disciples like John MacArthur openly say so. Yesterday, I had a chance to look into who historians claim was the first to promote the doctrine of original sin, and from more than one source, it is said to be Iranaeus, not Augustine, and it is said Iranaeus was fighting against gnostic doctrine, not a supporter of it. I have come across many different issues where the arguments against a doctrine were based on historians pinning the origins on someone you cannot trust, so I never take those kind of reasons serious by themselves. I need to see proof the doctrine is wrong Biblically. I am not going to say that because this person or this group believes or opposes something, I should disagree or agree with it. There was someone claiming the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture was only a couple of centuries old, and I found proof that was not true, from writings that went back much further. I just will not be persuaded one way or the other by that kind of thing. Is the original sin doctrine gnostic? Is it the same things gnostic teachers promote? To me, the answer is not even close. Gnostic teachers simply claim the physical world is unclean, whereas the original sin doctrine says mankind is guilty in the sight of God because of Adam's sin, and is unclean for that reason. Adam's original state was not unclean, including his physical body, so this is quite different from what gnostic teachers say. With that in mind, we need to look to the scriptures to determine if this teaching is true, not historians, and not guilt by association. Then there is the bad fruit argument. That holds no weight at all to me. I am not going to look at what some people did that happened to believe a certain doctrine, and say that this proves a doctrine is false. I have seen pro-life people commit crimes, including murder, in their zeal to stop abortions, but I am not going to say that this proves the pro-life position is false because of bad fruit. It all ultimately comes down to what does the Bible teach? Does the Bible support or oppose the doctrine of original sin, and that is what we are trying to determine in this portion of this discussion. I have not had a chance to read through the whole thread yet, because I have been dealing with someone in my family having health problems, but I will try to catch up soon and see how things are going, and how the arguments are going on both sides. I will also try to look into the scriptures more closely. I have found interesting videos on this subject online at YouTube. I had a chance to look at some of them yesterday. Ultimately for me, it comes down to what the Bible teaches. |
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Post by frienduff on Oct 8, 2020 21:10:56 GMT -5
John you're not quite understanding my view of this. I don't say children are in a neutral state until they commit a willful sin. It's not that they have a blank slate. I'm saying their souls commune with God in the womb, spiritually alive, abiding in the love of Jesus their creator, until human life begins its war on them. Scripture says God knits us in the womb. He's there with us creating us. We know Him at that time. Luke said John the Baptist leapt when he heard Mary's voice in the womb. Babies are spiritually alive. They worship Jesus in the womb. But they lose that connection over time and grow hardened as human life takes its toll. Thus by the age of 3 or 4 they are already drifting toward sin. Their naughtiness can be waived for a while, but not forever. All who live long enough to make any sort of independent decision have sinned. It doesn't start that way, but the flesh wears us down. Observe Romans 7. The flesh wages war on the Spirit, and our soul is caught in the crosshairs. It's unfair to make a caricature of this where a 13 year old drops dead the day after his birthday. I'm not talking about a legalistic deadline. I'm talking about spiritual death in childhood that must be reversed by regeneration. Notice it's called REgeneration. We were alive, then dead, then made alive forever in Christ. Just like the prodigal son. We must kill our human nature once and for all to exist as a human abiding in Christ. Just because the Mormons have wacky ideas about an overcrowded heaven, that isn't an argument against my view. I'm not the one who says original sin began with Augustine. That's what all of its proponents say. John MacArthur publicly admits his theology came by way of Augustine. Cletus himself said when you Google original sin you get Augustine. He is widely credited as the one who taught it -- and his writings do not appeal to any previous respectable Christian teachers, aside from random books like Edras. Augustine himself didn't even say it was "really" taught by men like Clement. We know it came from Augustine's gnosticism because it was verbatim gnosticism. Human flesh bad -- contact with flesh bad -- souls live in flesh -- souls bad in the womb. That was his logic. You can literally see the stepping stones from gnosticism to original sin. As for the fruit that grows from it, yes that matters. Imagine Christianity with no OSAS, no "stuck on sin" Christians who say they can't stop sinning, no LGBT churches because God made them that way, no Westborogh Baptists boycotting funerals, no violence in Christian lands because it's okay to kill lost people, and no massive falling away in Baptist churches where young Christians lose their faith because sin is unbreakable and God looks like a monster. We have Augustine to thank for all of this. He gladly takes the credit, and his disciples like John MacArthur openly say so. Yesterday, I had a chance to look into who historians claim was the first to promote the doctrine of original sin, and from more than one source, it is said to be Iranaeus, not Augustine, and it is said Iranaeus was fighting against gnostic doctrine, not a supporter of it. I have come across many different issues where the arguments against a doctrine were based on historians pinning the origins on someone you cannot trust, so I never take those kind of reasons serious by themselves. I need to see proof the doctrine is wrong Biblically. I am not going to say that because this person or this group believes or opposes something, I should disagree or agree with it. There was someone claiming the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture was only a couple of centuries old, and I found proof that was not true, from writings that went back much further. I just will not be persuaded one way or the other by that kind of thing. Is the original sin doctrine gnostic? Is it the same things gnostic teachers promote? To me, the answer is not even close. Gnostic teachers simply claim the physical world is unclean, whereas the original sin doctrine says mankind is guilty in the sight of God because of Adam's sin, and is unclean for that reason. Adam's original state was not unclean, including his physical body, so this is quite different from what gnostic teachers say. With that in mind, we need to look to the scriptures to determine if this teaching is true, not historians, and not guilt by association. Then there is the bad fruit argument. That holds no weight at all to me. I am not going to look at what some people did that happened to believe a certain doctrine, and say that this proves a doctrine is false. I have seen pro-life people commit crimes, including murder, in their zeal to stop abortions, but I am not going to say that this proves the pro-life position is false because of bad fruit. It all ultimately comes down to what does the Bible teach? Does the Bible support or oppose the doctrine of original sin, and that is what we are trying to determine in this portion of this discussion. I have not had a chance to read through the whole thread yet, because I have been dealing with someone in my family having health problems, but I will try to catch up soon and see how things are going, and how the arguments are going on both sides. I will also try to look into the scriptures more closely. I have found interesting videos on this subject online at YouTube. I had a chance to look at some of them yesterday. Ultimately for me, it comes down to what the Bible teaches. That is the beauty of it john . It comes down to only one thing . Does it contradict the bible . what does the BIBLE SAY . YEP . one glorious book . KJV BIBLE . OH that lovely bible . PRAISE GOD for those inspired Words . I say praise the Glorious LORD . My soul feels fat and happy after prayer night tonight . WE got us a fresh whole new start . AND NOW Its time the lambs never once look back . PRAISE BE TO THE GLORIOUS KING . Let all praise the LORD . |
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Post by frienduff on Oct 8, 2020 21:13:21 GMT -5
The savior had to come, and the cross had to take place, and so did the resurrection. YES HE DID my friend . My soul is fat and happy . POINT TO JESUS . Yes indeed . You were prayed for tonight my friend . Yep my soul is fired up from prayer meeting . A whole new start . A double digging in to the glorious LORD and the things that be of HIM . PRAISE BE TO THE LORD . |
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Oct 8, 2020 21:16:44 GMT -5
Here's some food for thought about Genesis 3. If Adam spiritually died that day, why did he continue in a dialogue with the Lord, and why did the Lord prophesy over him? Furthermore, why were they removed from the garden? Lest they eat the tree of life and live forever. In other words, lest they reverse the curse of death that came to their bodies. Before that day, there's no sign that Adam was supposed to be mortal at all. He died that day because he became mortal. The very concept of death entered creation at that time. The words "spiritual death" are added to Genesis by teachers. Also, when we read God's words about the curse put on Adam, we don't find "spiritually dead" as part of the curse. We don't find spiritual separation from God as part of the curse. We find that planet earth is damaged, crops will be precarious, hard work will be required to survive, and bodies return to dust upon death. Show me anywhere in Genesis any kind of teaching about Adam's children being born in a state of unbelief. When Paul mentions Adam in 1 Corinthians 15, what is he teaching? Resurrection of the dead in bodily form. Not spiritual rebirth, but actual immortality. For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. -- Romans 5:13:14If death reigned from Adam to Moses, and this is spiritual death, then we'll have to explain Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and Jacob. Again it's almost as if this is speaking of mortality. Before there was a law of Moses to judge people for, yet Abraham had to die like a mortal, why? Not because Adam's guilt was imputed to Abraham, but because Adam's mortality was. Have another look at Romans 5. Paul didn't say all are born in sin, all are made of sin, or any such. He said all people end up sinning. The natural course of human life is to become a sinner and die. Read Romans 5 through this lens and see if it doesn't make sense. Also, I will make this challenge. Aside from David (who was clearly one of God's elect) saying sin was involved in his conception, show me any Bible passage that says babies are spiritually dead and guilty of sin. Your questions are hard. And as you already know... there is no answer to some of them. But i will show you why i believe spiritual death is what did come that day:
Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
God who is omnipresent and knows all didnt know where Adam was already? He was separated from God. God dont need to ask us nothing... He asks us questions so we will think.
as far as what your saying about children being born in unbelief... you wont find a scripture that says that as that would contradict scripture, even other scriptures you have not quoted in this thread... and for the record, i dont believe that being born in unbelief is the same as well... i dont know what to call it now. when we are born we still got to get saved. To get Gods Spirit in us. life. Zao. If Jesus dont come into our hearts we are not apart of Him.
there is more to life than we realize right off. i dont see anything your saying and what i said about a phone and the bill dont get paid... phones good, but the line is dead. let me take it a step further about life, and the stuff we really do not know. cain killed able. God came and said yo cain... wheres your bro... i dunno, am i my brothers keeper.... and i expect God had enough of getting lied to at that moment and He said your brothers blood cries out to me from the field. My minds eye shows me a pic of God pointing right to where Able was slain... this blood spilled.... its biological. and dead.... BUT, it was still crying out to God. go figure. hows that work? Phones still good... but the line is dead. Spiritual is where its really at and the physical is just a glimpse of how it works we can see.
I think it would be good to back up one verse in what you quoted in Romans: Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
when you mention enoch thru Jacob... well thats making me think towards Gods will/plan. the jews thought genealogies were important... but in the bible the importance is to show forwards and backwards... Jesus is the rightful KING.
As i provided a scripture that does back up what your saying there are other scriptures that show there is another aspect to all of this:
Pro 22:15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
if Children are born pure pure then where did this foolishness bound up in the heart come from?
what i am thinking as of the time i wrote this... there is more to the sin nature we inherit than we realize, but it dont mean we are cast of in an attitude of we are worthless to God. even tho we have a fallen nature in a fallen world... He desires to restore us...He desires to Father us. and lead us into life.
edit: even tho we are broken.
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