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Post by John on Sept 18, 2018 8:43:16 GMT -5
I don't believe that Paul was giving fathers advice on the subject of marrying their daughters in 1 Corinthians 7---and I'm actually a bit surprised that BUTERO didn't object, given his strong KJV-only belief, since the KJV translates the verses in question differently than your translation (NASB). I believe that Paul was addressing unmarried men who were betrothed to a woman, not fathers with unmarried daughters. The word "daughter" in the NASB is italicized, which means that it was not in the Greek manuscript from which the text was translated. It was added by the translators for clarity according to what they believed it was referring to. The KJV translators did the same thing. This is how 1 Corinthians 7:36-38 reads in the KJV: But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin (this is definitely not speaking about fathers and daughters; it refers back to what Paul was addressing earlier in the same chapter about men and women marrying to avoid lust and fornication), if she pass the flower of her ("her" italicized) age, and need so require (same thing again---it is better to marry than to burn), let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry. (This is not saying that a father should let his daughter marry, but that it is permissible for a man and woman in this situation to do so. "Let" in this case is not referring to a father's permission, it just means let it be so, or it's acceptable.) Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will (again, the same thing Paul had been speaking about earlier in the chapter, about lust), and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin (his betrothed), doeth well This is actually correct . Forget the NASB or the ESV or the Greek or Hebrew definitions, or even the words added to the text to make it clear. Just look at the KJV Bible and explain this language meaning a man who is engaged?
"So then he THAT GIVETH HER IN MARRIAGE doeth well; but he THAT GIVETH HER NOT IN MARRIAGE doeth better."
That is the KJV Bible as written. You don't give a wife, you take a wife when you get married. I don't buy into any of this nonsense about added words changing the meaning, like the word "her" in the KJV Bible, because I take the KJV Bible as written, but Lights is claiming all translations changed the meaning with added words. That would include the KJV Bible. So I ask you Frienduff, how do you explain the wording in the KJV Bible? The reason I didn't object to what Candance posted is because it says basically the same thing in the KJV Bible.
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 18, 2018 8:46:00 GMT -5
You can plug the verses into BibleHub.com and compare multiple translations of 1 Corinthians 7:36-38. You can also look up those verses (36-38) in the Greek on BibleHub. The Greek says 'virgin of him'. I think the key to understanding the meaning of that passage is comparing what it says with what Paul has been speaking about, and who he has been addressing, up to that verse in chapter 7. It is an obscure passage by itself, so it can't be relied on to form doctrine around by itself. But I think the Greek supports the betrothed interpretation. That has been my argument to show that it is God's will that women marry and be a help-meet to a husband. I am taking the Bible as a whole. The passage that indicates it is better to be like Paul means single if your whole life is devoted to the work of the gospel, where marriage would hinder you. You were taking one passage by itself and not rightly dividing the Word of God.
Now you're going back and forth, brother. "The Bible as a whole?" The Old Testament? I thought we weren't talking about that. And what does this have to do with fathers and daughters? We discussed that passage (1 Corinthians 7:32-35) at length in a private message, and I explained it in the greater context of all of the other applicable Scriptures. I did not focus on a single passage. I compared the Scriptures that speak about this subject, as I have done on this thread. Show me the command of God for unmarried women to have a spiritual authority over them, and the Scripture that supports marriage being God's ideal for all Christian women, or His command for all Christian women to marry. You can't do it, because there isn't any. What you can do is look at all of the commands of Scripture for husbands and wives and say, because the Bible says so much about married women, it is God's ideal for all Christian women to be married. That is not fact. That is an interpretation of facts.
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Post by frienduff on Sept 18, 2018 8:48:27 GMT -5
I promise us all this , you will learn much clearer by NOT just taking the word of these so called greek concordances , or men and instead go research our own language . and do it the old fashioned way , as in READ the books in the library . Its rather interesting I found this out too . IN one of those books , oester I think is how it was spelled. But even in those old books about how English took form. IT even says , this was brought into christanity and it was pagan. ITS EASTAR. the folks that were telling us that ROME had truly brought in pagan things into christanity , FOLKS they were not LYING even a book that is NON RELIGOUS says so and it breaks it down . Might be something to remember the next time one wants us to sing the yuletide at christamas or go running around picking up easter eggs . Just know , you are celebrating a pagan event . Wow, this sure got off the topic. But I hope it helps. I have found that it is far better to look up what an English word means BY researching the ENGLISH itself, rather than taking mens advice about what their greek says it means . OFTEN they contradict . NOT A GOOD SIGN at all. NOT a good sign at all. You all are loved .
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Post by John on Sept 18, 2018 8:55:08 GMT -5
That has been my argument to show that it is God's will that women marry and be a help-meet to a husband. I am taking the Bible as a whole. The passage that indicates it is better to be like Paul means single if your whole life is devoted to the work of the gospel, where marriage would hinder you. You were taking one passage by itself and not rightly dividing the Word of God.
Now you're going back and forth, brother. "The Bible as a whole?" The Old Testament? I thought we weren't talking about that. And what does this have to do with fathers and daughters? We discussed that passage (1 Corinthians 7:32-35) at length in a private message, and I explained it in the greater context of all of the other applicable Scriptures. I did not focus on a single passage. I compared the Scriptures that speak about this subject, as I have done on this thread. Show me the command of God for unmarried women to have a spiritual authority over them, and the Scripture that supports marriage being God's ideal for all Christian women, or His command for all Christian women to marry. You can't do it, because there isn't any. What you can do is look at all of the commands of Scripture for husbands and wives and say, because the Bible says so much about married women, it is God's ideal for all Christian women to be married. That is not fact. That is an interpretation of facts. "I will therefore THAT THE YOUNGER WOMEN MARRY, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully." 1 Timothy 5:14
The main point of the passage is dealing with young widows, but in the passage you keep going to about Paul desiring all to be as him, he is speaking of those whose whole life is given to the ministry, and where marriage would distract them. You are focusing on a single passage and building a doctrine out of it. I would also point out the very reason women were created, to be a help-meet and companion to a husband, which is also re-affirmed in the New Testament.
"Neither was the man created for the woman, BUT THE WOMAN FOR THE MAN." 1 Corinthians 11:9
This is just re-affirming that women were created as help meets for a man. One must take the Bible as a whole to rightly divide it, but you are wrong if you think I can't show this without using Old Testament scripture.
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Post by frienduff on Sept 18, 2018 8:55:57 GMT -5
I concur this is definitely not worthy fighting over . And I agree butero, at least on the KJV , it don't add in , ITS ACCURATE . if we start second guessing all , WE in dire trouble . The kjv is accurate . its why its the one version under so much attack by the majority . And something else I have noticed. While by all means not all who say the KJV is the accurate bible may follow Christ , THE ONES WHO DO FOLLOW CHRIST and stand on that BIBLE, are not given to changes like others have been in times past and even now . THEY are more Proned to always disagree with the concept that NO BIBLE IS ACCURATE , whereas most who stand more on other versions , OFTEN say NO BIBLE IS FULLY ACCURATE. AND that IS DANGEROUS . cause if we have no solid foundation BY WHICH to test all things taught , all things heard , WE GOING to get deceived. Many men died to ensure we would have an accurate bible . and the kjv translation agrees with Tyndale and wycliff, men who actually suffered Not like these modern scholars who wont even lift a pinkie IF IT MEANS they got to suffer squat. they in it for the numbers and easy life . Tyndale and wycliff, WERE IN IT FOR THE LORD and for the sake that others would really learn them scrips . in modern society , these are in it with an agenda and have been . TYNDALE and Wycliff, were in it TO HONOR GOD and ensure others would learn pure doctrine .
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Post by frienduff on Sept 18, 2018 8:58:35 GMT -5
Lets ask ourselves something . The rick warrens , agents of change, WHAT versions do they promote and love , a hint NOT KJV , but the newer ones . Now as I said not all who say KJV only follow the LORD either . But those of us who DO FOLLOW THE LORD , we know what version is far best and is fully accurate . IT IS the kjv. it really is . And I don't say this to condmen others , who don't know this , I ONLY SAY it to encourage them to just read it and put the other versions down .
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PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 18, 2018 9:19:19 GMT -5
This thread is becoming bizarro world. I’m sorry I brought up the subject. None of this is essential to salvation. Fellow sisters, please don’t feel a burden to do something beyond your faith or comfort level. Please let’s just drop it.
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 18, 2018 9:22:08 GMT -5
Now you're going back and forth, brother. "The Bible as a whole?" The Old Testament? I thought we weren't talking about that. And what does this have to do with fathers and daughters? We discussed that passage (1 Corinthians 7:32-35) at length in a private message, and I explained it in the greater context of all of the other applicable Scriptures. I did not focus on a single passage. I compared the Scriptures that speak about this subject, as I have done on this thread. Show me the command of God for unmarried women to have a spiritual authority over them, and the Scripture that supports marriage being God's ideal for all Christian women, or His command for all Christian women to marry. You can't do it, because there isn't any. What you can do is look at all of the commands of Scripture for husbands and wives and say, because the Bible says so much about married women, it is God's ideal for all Christian women to be married. That is not fact. That is an interpretation of facts. "I will therefore THAT THE YOUNGER WOMEN MARRY, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully." 1 Timothy 5:14
The main point of the passage is dealing with young widows, but in the passage you keep going to about Paul desiring all to be as him, he is speaking of those whose whole life is given to the ministry, and where marriage would distract them. You are focusing on a single passage and building a doctrine out of it. I would also point out the very reason women were created, to be a help-meet and companion to a husband, which is also re-affirmed in the New Testament.
"Neither was the man created for the woman, BUT THE WOMAN FOR THE MAN." 1 Corinthians 11:9
This is just re-affirming that women were created as help meets for a man. One must take the Bible as a whole to rightly divide it, but you are wrong if you think I can't show this without using Old Testament scripture.
Here is the root of the issue: Nature vs faith. By nature, marriage is God's plan for man and woman. By design, the woman is a helper for the man. Under the new covenant, celibacy is God's ideal for Christians who have the faith to live that life, not for themselves but for Him. If they don't have that faith or the self-control to do this, they should marry. The only reason for a Christian woman to remain unmarried is faith---because she wants to devote herself completely to Jesus Christ, rather than to a husband, and God has convicted her that that is His will for her and has given her the desire to be---not simply because she wants to. No Christian is free to do whatever he or she wants to. If we marry, we should marry by faith, and if we do not marry, we should abstain from marriage because of faith. Show me the Scripture that proves that the only purpose of celibacy is for men to preach the gospel, since you say you take the whole Bible into consideration. You can't go merely by what Jesus said about the subject in the gospels, you also have to consider what Paul wrote about it in his epistles. Women are not called to preach the gospel, and that is not the reason Paul gave for their remaining unmarried.
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Post by John on Sept 18, 2018 9:26:19 GMT -5
This thread is becoming bizarro world. I’m sorry I brought up the subject. None of this is essential to salvation. Fellow sisters, please don’t feel a burden to do something beyond your faith or comfort level. Please let’s just drop it. You shouldn't be sorry for bringing up a Biblical teaching. No, this is not a salvation issue, as is the case with a lot of things related to God's order, but when we are doing things our own way, as opposed to God's way, it matters. One error leads to another. We need to come to the truth on this, not for salvation, but for our profit, because it is always better to do things God's way.
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Post by John on Sept 18, 2018 9:38:28 GMT -5
"I will therefore THAT THE YOUNGER WOMEN MARRY, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully." 1 Timothy 5:14
The main point of the passage is dealing with young widows, but in the passage you keep going to about Paul desiring all to be as him, he is speaking of those whose whole life is given to the ministry, and where marriage would distract them. You are focusing on a single passage and building a doctrine out of it. I would also point out the very reason women were created, to be a help-meet and companion to a husband, which is also re-affirmed in the New Testament.
"Neither was the man created for the woman, BUT THE WOMAN FOR THE MAN." 1 Corinthians 11:9
This is just re-affirming that women were created as help meets for a man. One must take the Bible as a whole to rightly divide it, but you are wrong if you think I can't show this without using Old Testament scripture.
Here is the root of the issue: Nature vs faith. By nature, marriage is God's plan for man and woman. By design, the woman is a helper for the man. Under the new covenant, celibacy is God's ideal for Christians who have the faith to live that life, not for themselves but for Him. If they don't have that faith or the self-control to do this, they should marry. The only reason for a Christian woman to remain unmarried is faith---because she wants to devote herself completely to Jesus Christ, rather than to a husband, and God has convicted her that that is His will for her and has given her the desire to be---not simply because she wants to. No Christian is free to do whatever he or she wants to. If we marry, we should marry by faith, and if we do not marry, we should abstain from marriage because of faith. Show me the Scripture that proves that the only purpose of celibacy is for men to preach the gospel, since you say you take the whole Bible into consideration. You can't go merely by what Jesus said about the subject in the gospels, you also have to consider what Paul wrote about it in his epistles. Women are not called to preach the gospel, and that is not the reason Paul gave for their remaining unmarried. I can do this using the scriptures you keep referring to, a single obscure passage. Just kidding, but not about the single passage.
But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none; And they that weep, as thought they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not; As they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away. BUT I WOULD HAVE YOU WITHOUT CAREFULNESS. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, BUT FOR THAT WHICH IS COMELY, AND THAT YE MAY ATTEND UPON THE LORD WITHOUT DISTRACTION. 1 Corinthians 7:29-35
This is speaking to the man or woman whose whole existence is about serving the Lord without distraction in whatever area of service the Lord placed them. There are examples of women who were in the temple day and night praying all the time. That would be such an example.
If women are not called to preach the gospel, you are in disobedience every time you teach here or on YouTube or anywhere else. You are preaching the gospel. This may not be in a church, as it is a message board, but you are preaching. You are preaching on YouTube. Is that okay for women? If they are spending their time preaching the gospel in the streets, on the internet, on the radio or television, they are serving God and giving themselves to that work.
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 18, 2018 10:32:02 GMT -5
Here is the root of the issue: Nature vs faith. By nature, marriage is God's plan for man and woman. By design, the woman is a helper for the man. Under the new covenant, celibacy is God's ideal for Christians who have the faith to live that life, not for themselves but for Him. If they don't have that faith or the self-control to do this, they should marry. The only reason for a Christian woman to remain unmarried is faith---because she wants to devote herself completely to Jesus Christ, rather than to a husband, and God has convicted her that that is His will for her and has given her the desire to be---not simply because she wants to. No Christian is free to do whatever he or she wants to. If we marry, we should marry by faith, and if we do not marry, we should abstain from marriage because of faith. Show me the Scripture that proves that the only purpose of celibacy is for men to preach the gospel, since you say you take the whole Bible into consideration. You can't go merely by what Jesus said about the subject in the gospels, you also have to consider what Paul wrote about it in his epistles. Women are not called to preach the gospel, and that is not the reason Paul gave for their remaining unmarried. I can do this using the scriptures you keep referring to, a single obscure passage. Just kidding, but not about the single passage.
But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none; And they that weep, as thought they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not; As they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away. BUT I WOULD HAVE YOU WITHOUT CAREFULNESS. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, BUT FOR THAT WHICH IS COMELY, AND THAT YE MAY ATTEND UPON THE LORD WITHOUT DISTRACTION. 1 Corinthians 7:29-35
This is speaking to the man or woman whose whole existence is about serving the Lord without distraction in whatever area of service the Lord placed them. There are examples of women who were in the temple day and night praying all the time. That would be such an example.
If women are not called to preach the gospel, you are in disobedience every time you teach here or on YouTube or anywhere else. You are preaching the gospel. This may not be in a church, as it is a message board, but you are preaching. You are preaching on YouTube. Is that okay for women? If they are spending their time preaching the gospel in the streets, on the internet, on the radio or television, they are serving God and giving themselves to that work.
I don't preach the gospel on the Lord's channel (it's not mine), and I'm also very clear that I am not a teacher of doctrine in the channel description and in the video descriptions. How I use the Scriptures in the calling and ministry that Jesus has given me is by faith and in the fear of God, without going beyond what is acceptable for me to do by the same faith, and I am accountable to Him for it. It's not any easy line to walk, but I do the best I can by faith. I can't speak about what other women are doing and why. The callings of apostles, evangelists, prophets and pastors are male, not female. Women prophesy but their ministry is not the same as that of prophets (male), who would also be permitted to teach doctrine formally in the churches or elsewhere. Sharing the gospel with other people informally is not forbidden to women to do, but the formal gift of evangelism, which involves not merely preaching the gospel but also teaching the doctrine that accompanies the gospel, is a male gift. The primary way that women preach the gospel is by their works and their conduct. The formal preaching and teaching of the word to build up the body of Christ is given to men, not women. If women could never speak about doctrine, they would not be able to discuss the Scriptures, or to share what the Lord has taught them from them with anyone, or to encourage or warn anyone using them. Older women who are mentors to younger women can use the Scriptures to instruct and encourage them in how to be good wives and mothers and godly women, but their formal instruction in doctrine is supposed to come from their husbands, who learn from the pastor. The way that an unmarried woman's time is filled is up to the Lord to decide. It is not necessarily one specific activity. It may be several different activities, and it may differ from day to day. Whatever she is doing with the time should be the Lord's will; and the more time a woman has to give God, the more of it He will fill, however He chooses. Making the best use of that time, however, is something that the individual has to pursue; otherwise, she could wind up like those young widows in 1 Timothy 5. The purpose of celibacy is not to give oneself more time for oneself, but to give Jesus all one's time, to do whatever He wills.
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Post by John on Sept 18, 2018 12:41:37 GMT -5
What you are sharing here is doctrine. I agree that there are many types of service.
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 18, 2018 13:03:28 GMT -5
What you are sharing here is doctrine. I agree that there are many types of service.
So here is the bottom line for me: What is best for an individual is decided by faith. It is God's ideal for Christians not to marry if they can abstain from it in order to devote their whole life to Him. If that is truly His will for them, He will give them both the conviction and the desire to do so, and the grace. If they cannot abstain from marriage, either for reasons of temptation to sin, or because they desire to marry and don't feel called to live a celibate life, they should marry. There is no command from God to be celibate; it's optional. Ideal, but optional. And for those who are not called to it, it's not beneficial to them to be so. They should marry and serve the Lord in that capacity, and they will be rewarded and blessed for doing so, just as one who does not marry by faith will be rewarded and blessed for serving the Lord in that capacity. No one is going to be rewarded for anything that isn't of faith; it will amount to wood, hay and straw. Neither marriage nor celibacy should be merely because the Christian wants to; it should be because he or she believes that one or the other is the Lord's will for him or her. If it's God will for a Christian woman to marry, her spiritual head is her husband, by God's decree. If it isn't His will for her to marry, she doesn't need a spiritual head. If she follows the Lord, He'll direct her and keep her. Obviously that doesn't mean that she'll never sin or make mistakes, but so will a wife, and so will a husband, and so will an unmarried man.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2018 17:33:12 GMT -5
I'm sorry this has become distressing and confusing for Pg4God. It's one of those things that are hard to sort out in writing. I don't think anybody is fighting over this, but just discussing. In my case I felt it was important to try and arrive at a right understanding of those verses in order not to have a skewed idea of male authority....regarding it's reach as well as it's limits and what it is for. I don't believe that fathers have authority under God to prevent grown women (daughters or wards) in their households from marrying if that would be against their will...that would be an abuse of authority. Important to understand that God is not a harsh task-master and has put certain things in place out of love and kindness with our good in mind....like He made the sabbath for man and not man for the sabbath. Likewise with regard to women's issues, he made these commands and guidelines for us, for our sakes....he didnt' make us for the guidelines.
I'm aware that men in general are often not very interested in these issues, but to my mind there have been far too many tragic incidences of abuses where these things are not understood properly to ignore it and let things stand as they were. And not to mention that the right image of God needs to be shown to an unbelieving world...I think they have had their fill of stomach churning scandals in Christendom by now. (And please don't anyone misunderstand, I'm not saying anybody is in that place...just that if we don't understand some things aright it eventually leads to a wrong place....so we don't want to give the devil any foothold.)
Anyway I'm tired too and will give it a rest. Might try and discuss it again in the section about roles of men and women some other time.
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Post by Abby-Joy on Sept 18, 2018 17:45:42 GMT -5
I mean how on earth can this be about Fathers and daughters . What part of a father lusting after his daughter , acting uncomely towards her . would paul then turn around and advise them to marry . Folks a lot of folks had servants back then and I think we tend to forget that . They had male and female servants who would wait on them . Not like the slavery type of Americas error, but servants none the less. Though this is nothing to strive over . and I think folks may or may not realize what passed her flower means . Go look that one up in the English language. Has she flowered yet , that means bled . this is a fact . I learned a lot by simply researching the English of old, middle , early modern . The beauty of it , was the ONLY , only reason I even desired to learn the English was to also help show folks , THAT we have been lied too , when others were saying , OH over time the English translations or any , had been altered and thus no bible is accurate . I knew that was a lie , so I went to town to prove that while the language shifted , THE ACCURACY did not . at least not up until the KJV. now sadly , these modern translations do contain errors . They are not word for word translation , they simply translations OF what the author DEEEMED was meant by the writing . This is why you see even in these concordances , changes . Its based on what man THINKS it means , rather than the word for word translation . I get what you're saying, frienduff ... because in verse 36, it almost sounds like a man/father is justified in "behaving uncomely toward his virgin (daughter)" and that he can marry her so long as she is physically mature enough ("past the flower"). It takes some careful reading to get the meaning.
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