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Post by tlsitd on Sept 12, 2018 13:47:42 GMT -5
I live in a house (actually a condo---not my own), and it's God's will for me to be here. I'm not saying that Christians shouldn't live in houses (that they should live in tents or under bridges or wander the streets), I just meant that in some cases, for a period of time, God might not provide a Christian with shelter---that shelter may come and go, like other things, depending on God's will for an individual and his or her calling in life. Thinking that anything besides what God said He would surely provide for us is a guarantee is going beyond what God said He would do. And if that's our mentality, that God would never take away our shelter, or that His will guarantees it (or any other thing), we'll probably be inclined to try to keep something that God may actually be taking away. I think that in most cases it is God's will for Christians to have shelter, especially married Christians with families. The minimum necessities of life are food and clothing, but God generally provides His people with more than that. The thing is, our primary concern with regard to whatever we have or ask God for, should be having what we need to do His will, since that is our primary purpose on this earth as Christians---not having a certain kind of a lifestyle or having what we want (which is how the people of this world think and live). Not that we can't ask God for things that we want, or shouldn't do so, but getting things that we want for ourselves from Him shouldn't be our primary desire or pursuit. And I addressed the subject of taxes in my reply to sister Candance. If you don't pay rent, you'll be evicted. If you don't pay for your groceries, you can't take them. If you don't pay your electric bill, your electricity will be shut off. That's not the same thing as debt. That's just a matter of paying for goods and services and obeying the law. You're not enslaved to the electric company. You can choose to live without electricity; but if you want the power company to supply it to your residence, you have to pay for it every month. It's a monthly service you're paying for, like rent; and if you're paying for that service on time, you're not in debt; you're paying what you owe them, like Romans 13:7 says. Paul wasn't confused when he said in verse 7, "Pay to all what is owed to them" and then in verse 8, "Owe no one anything": One is a case of paying for goods and services and obeying the law, and the other is debt. Most utilities are paid for after you use them for a month, so in a way, that also would be a debt since you owe for something you already used (like borrowing and paying back). You pay an initial deposit, but then what you use for the month is billed at the end of the month. In that way, you do technically "owe" a debt. One could go off the grid, and not have electricity or have an alternative power source like solar. But you'd be hard pressed to find a rental like that. (Just thinking of all the possible different scenarios.)
The same goes for phone, internet, water, etc ... all are usually paid for after we use them. Probably so; but that's not our problem---that companies are greedy. If we want to use their services, we have to pay what they charge, and pay them for what they provide. And if we do so, on time, we're not in debt to them.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 14:58:20 GMT -5
Rom 13:7-8 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
The sense we seem to receive from these passages is to come behind in nothing that is rightfully or legally due to someone…whether in the form of money or demeanour or duty. We are not to have the guilt (debt) of withholding what we owe that rightfully belongs to someone….and this is part of love.
For example if someone comes behind in helping and supporting their aged parents who are in need they are now in debt the support and help that they owe their parents, ie, that is due to their parents…..and that would not be love. If you disobey your boss at work you are now behind and owe your boss the work that you failed to do. If a wife comes behind in respecting her husband, that is not love and she is coming behind and in debt (owing) in that particular sense and needs to get back up to speed in her attitude with him. I don’t see these passages as being a commentary or prohibition concerning borrowing money but rather it’s speaking of owing what is due in a larger sense. Edit: In other words if we love, we aren't coming behind and "owing" anyone any of these things.
The bible says to lend to those who ask you, and it could be a fellow Christian who asks. And the Christian lender in that case should not expect it back and hold it over the head of the borrower in need…..however, a good Christian who borrows will of course consider that the money is owing and give it back if or when he is able to. Point being that the Lord would not have us be party to sin, so lending and borrowing can’t be sin if He has said we are to lend to those who ask.
We are not under the Law but in the glorious liberty of the children of God and led by His Spirit. If the Lord leads someone to borrow money or take out a mortgage in order to buy a safe and stable place to say, raise your family, or provide shelter for missionaries, or for any number of reasons, then know that He would not lead us to sin. In my case owning a home with a mortgage has been the way God provided for us over many years. It’s hard to explain my circumstances, but it was through the increasing value of our home that we actually got out of debt that had plagued us ever since getting married, and also were able to buy things that we needed without incurring more debt. The Lord had spoken to me in dreams with instructions concerning our first house purchase and also the sale of our last house….and He provided the down payment for that first house. Kids are grown and now we are renting, as led to by Him.. (Please don’t get the idea that life has been a financial picnic…we have struggled a lot, faith has been tested and tried, and the provision was very much needed each time, but as I said it’s hard to explain everything..…the Lord is faithful. If only He would heal my ragged nerves now, heh 😊 …but even so, His grace is sufficient.)
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 12, 2018 15:32:09 GMT -5
...the Lord is faithful. If only He would heal my ragged nerves now, heh 😊 …but even so, His grace is sufficient... What do you mean?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 15:44:20 GMT -5
...the Lord is faithful. If only He would heal my ragged nerves now, heh 😊 …but even so, His grace is sufficient... What do you mean?My nerves seem to be shot....if you think of nerves as shock absorbers, they dont' seem to absorb shock (stress) very well. That's how it feels at least. Gotten worse over the years.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 12, 2018 15:49:34 GMT -5
My nerves seem to be shot....if you think of nerves as shock absorbers, they dont' seem to absorb shock (stress) very well. That's how it feels at least. Gotten worse over the years. You mean you have a low tolerance for stress? That's common. It's no fun. Prayers for you, sister.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 12, 2018 15:50:20 GMT -5
The money discussion has been diverted to a new thread under Finances.
Let's get this thread back to the subject of faith.
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Post by frienduff on Sept 12, 2018 15:58:22 GMT -5
Sister watchful you loved dear sister . Let those ragged nerves be healed . No worries sister , life is but a vapor . Oh but those who KNOW the LORD their end is greatly blessed . No matter what sister , we got all hope . And you are loved sister .
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 16:05:21 GMT -5
Thanks guys, appreciate the kind thoughts and prayers.
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Post by John on Sept 12, 2018 16:09:26 GMT -5
I don't believe for one second that a person having to go into debt is not trusting God, and it is not necessarily living above your means. If you can afford to make the payments, that is not above your means. Above your means is when you can't afford the payments.
I know for a fact that God worked things out for me to get my house and even the mortgage. I was led straight to the home, we had just enough money saved to make the down payment, the price of the home was exactly the amount we could get the loan for, and our credit had been restored after I had been working at a better paying job and was able to have a history of paying the bills on time. Rent would have been higher than the mortgage, and would have gone on forever. Rent would have been above my means, while the house payment was not. On a 30 year mortgage, the Lord allowed us to pay it off in less than 10 years. Today, I have no debt, except a little on credit cards that I could pay off today if I had to. We just carry a small amount on a credit card at times so we don't have to touch our bank account. It all depends on the circumstances.
Now, I know of people with the attitude that we only go around once, so they will purchase things they really can't afford with no realistic plan of how to pay the money back. They will get a house bigger than they need. They will get a more expensive car than they need. They will put vacations on a credit card, and be unable to pay it back for years. I know a man that did that with a trip to Disney World, and he said it would take years to pay it off. It all just depends on the circumstances. I see it as trusting in God that he led me right to the home I was supposed to have and moved mountains out of my way to be able to afford it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 16:11:24 GMT -5
I live in a house (actually a condo---not my own), and it's God's will for me to be here. I'm not saying that Christians shouldn't live in houses (that they should live in tents or under bridges or wander the streets), I just meant that in some cases, for a period of time, God might not provide a Christian with shelter---that shelter may come and go, like other things, depending on God's will for an individual and his or her calling in life. Thinking that anything besides what God said He would surely provide for us is a guarantee is going beyond what God said He would do. And if that's our mentality, that God would never take away our shelter, or that His will guarantees it (or any other thing), we'll probably be inclined to try to keep something that God may actually be taking away. I think that in most cases it is God's will for Christians to have shelter, especially married Christians with families. The minimum necessities of life are food and clothing, but God generally provides His people with more than that. The thing is, our primary concern with regard to whatever we have or ask God for, should be having what we need to do His will, since that is our primary purpose on this earth as Christians---not having a certain kind of a lifestyle or having what we want (which is how the people of this world think and live). Not that we can't ask God for things that we want, or shouldn't do so, but getting things that we want for ourselves from Him shouldn't be our primary desire or pursuit. And I addressed the subject of taxes in my reply to sister Candance. If you don't pay rent, you'll be evicted. If you don't pay for your groceries, you can't take them. If you don't pay your electric bill, your electricity will be shut off. That's not the same thing as debt. That's just a matter of paying for goods and services and obeying the law. You're not enslaved to the electric company. You can choose to live without electricity; but if you want the power company to supply it to your residence, you have to pay for it every month. It's a monthly service you're paying for, like rent; and if you're paying for that service on time, you're not in debt; you're paying what you owe them, like Romans 13:7 says. Paul wasn't confused when he said in verse 7, "Pay to all what is owed to them" and then in verse 8, "Owe no one anything": One is a case of paying for goods and services and obeying the law, and the other is debt. Most utilities are paid for after you use them for a month, so in a way, that also would be a debt since you owe for something you already used (like borrowing and paying back). You pay an initial deposit, but then what you use for the month is billed at the end of the month. In that way, you do technically "owe" a debt. One could go off the grid, and not have electricity or have an alternative power source like solar. But you'd be hard pressed to find a rental like that. (Just thinking of all the possible different scenarios.)
The same goes for phone, internet, water, etc ... all are usually paid for after we use them. Abby Joy, you're touching right on one of the the problems with being under laws, right on the button here. Trouble with the law is that we can keep splicing and splitting the hairs of it for eternity.....and God would have us free of those kinds of concerns. You just keep on with your utilities sister, and don't even give it a thought about whether it is debt or not.
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Post by John on Sept 12, 2018 16:12:36 GMT -5
I live in a house (actually a condo---not my own), and it's God's will for me to be here. I'm not saying that Christians shouldn't live in houses (that they should live in tents or under bridges or wander the streets), I just meant that in some cases, for a period of time, God might not provide a Christian with shelter---that shelter may come and go, like other things, depending on God's will for an individual and his or her calling in life. Thinking that anything besides what God said He would surely provide for us is a guarantee is going beyond what God said He would do. And if that's our mentality, that God would never take away our shelter, or that His will guarantees it (or any other thing), we'll probably be inclined to try to keep something that God may actually be taking away. I think that in most cases it is God's will for Christians to have shelter, especially married Christians with families. The minimum necessities of life are food and clothing, but God generally provides His people with more than that. The thing is, our primary concern with regard to whatever we have or ask God for, should be having what we need to do His will, since that is our primary purpose on this earth as Christians---not having a certain kind of a lifestyle or having what we want (which is how the people of this world think and live). Not that we can't ask God for things that we want, or shouldn't do so, but getting things that we want for ourselves from Him shouldn't be our primary desire or pursuit. And I addressed the subject of taxes in my reply to sister Candance. If you don't pay rent, you'll be evicted. If you don't pay for your groceries, you can't take them. If you don't pay your electric bill, your electricity will be shut off. That's not the same thing as debt. That's just a matter of paying for goods and services and obeying the law. You're not enslaved to the electric company. You can choose to live without electricity; but if you want the power company to supply it to your residence, you have to pay for it every month. It's a monthly service you're paying for, like rent; and if you're paying for that service on time, you're not in debt; you're paying what you owe them, like Romans 13:7 says. Paul wasn't confused when he said in verse 7, "Pay to all what is owed to them" and then in verse 8, "Owe no one anything": One is a case of paying for goods and services and obeying the law, and the other is debt. Most utilities are paid for after you use them for a month, so in a way, that also would be a debt since you owe for something you already used (like borrowing and paying back). You pay an initial deposit, but then what you use for the month is billed at the end of the month. In that way, you do technically "owe" a debt. One could go off the grid, and not have electricity or have an alternative power source like solar. But you'd be hard pressed to find a rental like that. (Just thinking of all the possible different scenarios.)
The same goes for phone, internet, water, etc ... all are usually paid for after we use them. There is also that thing called property taxes, where you have to pay each year a tax on what you own, so in a way, that prevents you from ever fully owning anything. That is one of the most unfair taxes in existence.
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Post by Abby-Joy on Sept 12, 2018 16:14:38 GMT -5
The money discussion has been diverted to a new thread under Finances. Let's get this thread back to the subject of faith. Yes, let's do! The OP is great.
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Post by Abby-Joy on Sept 12, 2018 16:19:25 GMT -5
Most utilities are paid for after you use them for a month, so in a way, that also would be a debt since you owe for something you already used (like borrowing and paying back). You pay an initial deposit, but then what you use for the month is billed at the end of the month. In that way, you do technically "owe" a debt. One could go off the grid, and not have electricity or have an alternative power source like solar. But you'd be hard pressed to find a rental like that. (Just thinking of all the possible different scenarios.)
The same goes for phone, internet, water, etc ... all are usually paid for after we use them. There is also that thing called property taxes, where you have to pay each year a tax on what you own, so in a way, that prevents you from ever fully owning anything. That is one of the most unfair taxes in existence.
Yes, this is true! (That leads me to something I may like to bring up and ask about concerning buying things with gold... ? ...where would be the appropriate area to post that?)
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Post by John on Sept 12, 2018 16:21:06 GMT -5
There is also that thing called property taxes, where you have to pay each year a tax on what you own, so in a way, that prevents you from ever fully owning anything. That is one of the most unfair taxes in existence.
Yes, this is true! (That leads me to something I may like to bring up and ask about concerning buying things with gold... ? ...where would be the appropriate area to post that?) I would imagine under Finances. It seems to me like that would be the most appropriate section for a discussion like that.
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 13, 2018 6:35:46 GMT -5
I don't believe for one second that a person having to go into debt is not trusting God, and it is not necessarily living above your means. If you can afford to make the payments, that is not above your means. Above your means is when you can't afford the payments.
I know for a fact that God worked things out for me to get my house and even the mortgage. I was led straight to the home, we had just enough money saved to make the down payment, the price of the home was exactly the amount we could get the loan for, and our credit had been restored after I had been working at a better paying job and was able to have a history of paying the bills on time. Rent would have been higher than the mortgage, and would have gone on forever. Rent would have been above my means, while the house payment was not. On a 30 year mortgage, the Lord allowed us to pay it off in less than 10 years. Today, I have no debt, except a little on credit cards that I could pay off today if I had to. We just carry a small amount on a credit card at times so we don't have to touch our bank account. It all depends on the circumstances.
Now, I know of people with the attitude that we only go around once, so they will purchase things they really can't afford with no realistic plan of how to pay the money back. They will get a house bigger than they need. They will get a more expensive car than they need. They will put vacations on a credit card, and be unable to pay it back for years. I know a man that did that with a trip to Disney World, and he said it would take years to pay it off. It all just depends on the circumstances. I see it as trusting in God that he led me right to the home I was supposed to have and moved mountains out of my way to be able to afford it.
You know something, sometimes God allows us to do and have things that aren't really His will, even though we think that they are. Later, He gives us more understanding about a matter, so that we can do that will more perfectly. I don't rely on my personal experiences to determine the meaning of God's word---that because something happens to me, and I think God did it, that anything in the Bible which contradicts what I believe must be a misinterpretation or misunderstanding of the word on my part. If I'm going to find fault, it's going to be with my experiences, not with what the word says. It's never a good idea to mold Scripture to our experiences (not that we necessarily do this intentionally). God allowing and God willing are two different things. There are a lot of things that Christians do or are doing that they believe God is blessing or leading them to do, when in fact that isn't the case. This is especially true with things that we might do that contradict the teachings of the Bible (especially the New Testament), but is not exclusive to it. God is very merciful and patient with His saints who desire with all their heart to please Him, and who are doing what they know to be His will to the best of their understanding, which all of those who do are and will be increasing in until they leave this world. Nevertheless, we should all be careful not to use the Scriptures to support our personal experiences, rather than to test them by (yes, there's a difference), with a sincere desire to know what the word really teaches, rather than to find justification in it for our actions or experiences. That's a matter of the heart: God knows who is really doing what. But it's of no benefit to us to fool ourselves or to be stubborn about our beliefs or our actions when the Scriptures actually do testify against them, or do not support them. And I speak for myself about this as much as for anyone else here.
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