PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Dec 13, 2018 13:20:17 GMT -5
When judging a true Christian minister, I believe it’s important to look at the full picture of good fruit. Of course sound doctrine is a must. There are also other things. Does he love his wife and speak kindly to her? Does he keep his household in order? Does he pay his bills? Is he rebellious toward authority? Does he sharply rebuke an elder, or try to appeal as if speaking to a father? Will he preach against sin but then look the other way because of money? Does he play favorites with people? Is he modest in how he speaks? Does he like to argue? Does he use unethical tactics to win a debate? I believe these things all play in to the fruit of a minister.
|
|
|
Post by frienduff on Dec 13, 2018 13:25:14 GMT -5
And this is why I fully stand against that inclusive move . And though all their arrows shoot against me , MY SHIELD IS CHRIST and can no arrow of their lies and false doctrine can penetrate THAT SHIELD . And not only that , but I will , BY GRACE , be picking up the CROSS BOW OF TRUTH and let arrows fly against their false doctrine , exposing them for the wolves they are . ITS WAR my friends , and we must now pick up the SWORD and have all on HIS ARMOUR . We will soon enter into the greatest tribulation that has been . And as many who have come before us , some killed, some beaten , scourged , hated , ,mocked , SO TOO WILL MANY OF US . LET THE TRUMPET SOUND a great delusion fills the land and its doctrine is of sinking sand Its doctrine the lambs will not hear for they hold JESUS alone as dear And though the land and leaders will come against CHRISTS saints they will not bow to the king of aints. FOR THIER LORD IS WIHT THEM and they will FOLLOW HIM , no matter what the cost and all this comes for men rejected the love of the truth and heed the message of the lost . But we fear not mere mortal man FOR IN OUR LORD WE KNOW WE CAN And no threat of harm will stop our feet no fiery blaze of the wicked no matter how great the HEAT will cause a lamb to stumble or fall FOR THEY FOLLOW THE ONE WHO DOES KNOW ALL .
YEAH SING THAT TO ROME . CAUSE WE WONT HEED HER MESSAGE PEROID and if we die then we die , BUT WE THE LORDS .
|
|
|
Post by frienduff on Dec 13, 2018 13:33:25 GMT -5
When judging a true Christian minister, I believe it’s important to look at the full picture of good fruit. Of course sound doctrine is a must. There are also other things. Does he love his wife and speak kindly to her? Does he keep his household in order? Does he pay his bills? Is he rebellious toward authority? Does he sharply rebuke an elder, or try to appeal as if speaking to a father? Will he preach against sin but then look the other way because of money? Does he play favorites with people? Is he modest in how he speaks? Does he like to argue? Does he use unethical tactics to win a debate? I believe these things all play in to the fruit of a minister. Since we know no minister is to be a novice , ANY man who does lead or teachthe church , MUST already have had their sense exercised to discern even the wee tiniest bit of leaven. NO man who can twist ANY of JESUS sayings SHOULD be teaching anyone , RATHER they have need to be TAUGHT AGAIN .
Sit down I say and learn o men who teach error , repent and learn , OR GO GET JOBS elsewhere , cause you fleecing the flocks . Had the church stayed under the ONLY PATTERN JESUS SET , HIS SAYINGS and what the apostels taught , IT WOULD NOT FALL . inquity would be corrected quickly . SURE it may lose members , but the ones it keeps will GROW UP N THE FAITH and who knows , some even repent when corrected . BUT to teach as most these churches do today , NO THANKS , if I wanted the movitvational speechs of the world THEN I would have sat under motivational teachers of the world . IF I desired the sins of the world , then I would be OF the world . IT is time to preach JESUS CHRIST and HE ALONE and every word of HIS and the TRUE PATTERN the apostels taught . AND LIVE IT , LEARN IT , AND LOVE IT and surely one will grow .
|
|
|
Post by frienduff on Dec 13, 2018 13:40:42 GMT -5
And sister Candace , it don't matter what they would say about ya , YOU know I loves ya as I do all other here too . PUT those hands in vertical positions held high and praise the LORD .
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Dec 13, 2018 13:45:27 GMT -5
My biggest problem with finding a local church has not been lack of doctrine but lack of maturity. The TV preacher inspirational stuff hasn’t (yet) overtaken small churches around here. We can find lots of pastors who talk a good game doctrinally. But they don’t have any anointing. Most of them are juvenile, ignorant, tedious, and very bad at parenting. In a lot of the denominational churches, it’s really the conference that does all the pastoring.
They will have a service where the Spirit moves for five or ten minutes to touch a few people. The pastor will gleefully proclaim that gifts are in operation in that church. And you’re sitting back, like, five minutes of a vague anointing??
|
|
|
Post by Sister on Dec 13, 2018 19:08:52 GMT -5
I agree this verse is referring to Israel.
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
because two verses up it speaks about Israel;
Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (ISRAEL)
Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:(ISRAEL) but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
What I don't see is that verse 29 is speaking about God repenting or not repenting on his decision concerning Israel. God chose Israel from the beginning. It's always been in his plan and God has used them as an example back then, now and future. Israel are enemies of the gospel because they do not accept Christ,... no buts. When they see his coming and recognise that Christ delivers them from their enemies, then they will believe in him. The veil will be taken off...,... and mercy given... .on that day. This is what it means "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance" - Israel will be saved by "mercy" alone, "without" them having to repent (no time left). Grace is given to start a new leaf.
Repentance is a learning process. I gave the example of the Gentiles also. The gentiles received mercy because of Israel's unbelief, not because they were good. That same mercy given to the Gentiles will go back to Israel also. Mercy upon the two groups in the end. God is fair.
Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
YES . GODS gift to Israel and the gentiles IS CHRIST . IF a jew rejects GOD he will die in his sin , if a gentile rejects GOD he will die in his sin . Lots of folks use that verse out of text . GOD , if we read has not only concluded all the jews to be in unbelief , But also every gentile . FOR THIER is NONE that does righteous . THE MERCY given , IS CHRIST , but if either gentile or jew reject that , THEY ARE DAMNED for all eternity . And not all thejews , just like not all the gentiles will be saved . IF so , paul BEING a jew would never have said HE TOO could be cast out . THEM early jewish apostels KNEW what man has long forgotten . JESUS ONLY SAVES , SO LETS GET BUSY preaching HIM to both jew and gentile . I AGREE WITH THEM . Not all jews or gentiles will be saved . ONLY those FOUND IN CHRIST . I say and said , ONLY those FOUND IN CHRIST . who believed IN HIM who followed HIM , to the end . No matter if it was for just five minutes or twenty years or fifty years , FIATHFUL TO THE END . We got folks on this jew mania train , and let us pray they hop off it quick . FOR the flesh profits no man . NO jew or gentile who rejects their creator , GOD will have life . AND if jew or gentile rejects JESUS , GUESS WHO THEY REJECTED . THE ONE WHO SENT HIM . GOD .
If anyone rejects Christ he will not take part in the first resurrection. That is clear. Israel rejected Christ, yet through mercy they will still obtain salvation. Israel will not be in the first resurrection but will be restored during the millennium. They will not be caught up in the clouds with Christ and turned to spirit, but brought into the millennial kingdom in the flesh to be taught. Not all who reject Christ will die in their sins, because the remnants of Israel are chosen not to, but to be spared and receive grace. This is God's plan. They will not end up dying in their sins. They do not receive mercy because they earned it and worked their way towards it, but through grace only. Mercy is given without repentance.
If we have understood through the scriptures that Israel repents and comes to the Lord and takes part in the first resurrection, then we have a problem and have not understood God's plan and purpose for them.
|
|
|
Post by Sister on Dec 13, 2018 19:23:14 GMT -5
Getting into the nitty gritty, there will also be survivors of the Gentiles who did not know Christ that will not die in their sins. They will be given a chance also to learn throughout the millennium and be taught truth and healed. They are chosen also to take part in this great plan and will be taught and guided to truth through Israel. That's Israel's job during this time, to preach truth for a thousand years with the Lord Jesus Christ dwelling in their hearts. What they all missed out on was taking part in the first resurrection which is why there will be a second resurrection at the end of the 1000 years. All part of the great and wonderful plan, so carefully worked out
|
|
|
Post by frienduff on Dec 13, 2018 20:01:01 GMT -5
Well, I am sticking with what JESUS said and the apostels said . And er one of them apostels n that early church was believing the time was nigh and they was in over time drive preaching JESUS as the ONLY Salvation . Any jew or gentile that rejects Christ shall be damned forever . But all who receive Him , have eternal life . I don't know what the others books and prophets say , But I know what JESUS said , and the apostels had one heavy sense of urgency that if a man rejects Christ their is but one thing that awaits , Damanation in a lake of fire . I go with what JESUS told his own desciples when they asked HIM , LORD will you at this time restore the KINGDOM back to Israel. And HE said , it aint for you to know the times and seasons the FATHER has placed in HIS own time , YE GO AND SPREAD THAT GOSPLE .
|
|
Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
|
Post by Cletus on Dec 13, 2018 20:26:20 GMT -5
the verse the gifts and calling are not without repentance is a verse God gave me when i had strayed and believed the lie God wouldnt take me back but really He was bringing me back to Him... when God spoke it to me i realized i had hope.
|
|
|
Post by Sister on Dec 13, 2018 23:27:54 GMT -5
Well, I am sticking with what JESUS said and the apostels said . Who are you speaking to?
This is true. There is no other name that we can be saved by.
This is not true because the scriptures say this;
Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Israel are doing this today. Speaking against Christ. They hate him....yet..... the scriptures say;
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
So are they damned?
Or has God got a plan for them?
.....that plan is mercy.
True, Israel will receive him when he gives mercy to them at his Coming. This is their time to go through Christ. They will not reject ever again, nor will they be damned.
God has blinded Israel because they rejected his Son. They cannot repent because of the veil covering their eyes. No comprender, no comprendere, no compreendo.
But God has chosen only a remnant of Israel (a few) to bring in to the kingdom and teach. They will multiply, and teach their children and their children's children. This is the Israel that will be saved, the Israel to come, starting from the remnants who were spared and bringing them into the new era.
I am talking about what's written in the KJV, not any other book. I see your point frienduff, we preach Jesus with urgency, but also must preach the truth. No errors ok?
I am going into the nitty gritty. We are talking about pure doctrine here concerning what's to come. I know the aim is to get into the first resurrection whether Jew or Gentile. This is the great reward Christ brings with him. SALVATION. Not all will be in that first resurrection. If any miss out, they cannot depend on being a remnant to get their free pass, because not all of them will be chosen for this particular election to save Israel's name. Same as with the remnants of the Gentiles who survive Armageddon. What comes after this thousand years is the great white throne judgement. This is a harsh judgement where the balances are weighed out, and all judged according to their deeds, so not many will make it through. You forget that there are heathen out there that served other gods, and didn't know the Lord. Are they all damned for the lake of fire? No. Which is why there is a great white throne judgement. God will look into every man's heart, and mercy will be given to some of them also who never knew the truth. All these people will still have to accept Christ before they can receive salvation, because he's the judge. No one gets past him but has to go through him.
So you are not technically correct when you say that all that reject Christ will automatically be condemned for the lake of fire - because there is a process involved before that day comes. There is mercy for some who never knew him because of the belief system they were born into, or lack of - but still, they will not be in the first resurrection - A great loss. Woe.
This first resurrection is the one that we aim for and why we preach Jesus because he is coming soon, and with great wrath on all those who practice unrighteousness. I can tell you now that when the door is shut, the punishments will come starting with the 7 angels and will escalate, but not all the ungodly will be killed and die in their sins for some will be spared as I already mentioned regarding the remnants and the Gentiles reserved for the new millennia.
|
|
|
Post by frienduff on Dec 14, 2018 0:30:28 GMT -5
You learning things wrong sister . And I must correct this mindset . Paul who was a jew , james , and those men KNEW that if even they did not continue in Christ or any jew or gentile that rejected JESUS is damned period . No jew can reject GOD and have eternal life No gentile can reject God and have eternal life . Most the things you teaching on this is now speculation. When God warned the seven churches to repent or etc , it wasn't just gentiles in those churches , it was jews too. IF a jew or gentile rejects CHRIST they are damned period . IF a jew or gentile continues not in Christ they will be cast out , damned . Paul and all the apostels spoke or wrote to all beleivers whether jew and gentile and both knew and taught JESUS was the ONLY savoir and that if a man rejects CHRIST they are damned . JESUS IS THE PLAN and the only plan of salvation . Any jew who has died in time past rejecting him will awake to the judgment and be cast into the lake of fire same as with any gentile , who has rejected Christ . THE flesh profits a man nothing . They must be born again . The jews who believe not as well as the gentiles who believe not , are at this moment being prepared to receive the wrong messiah when it does come . We gotta warn RIGHT NOW , every jew or gentile , REPENT and come to CHRIST or perish . Their is no need to plant ideas of the thousand years in minds , PLANT JESUS AS SAVOIR and warn every jew or gentile who knows him not , REPENT asap and let us remind and exhort those who do believe , TO CONTINUE In him faithful to the end or risk all . We need to stop speculating on things we do not fully understand , WE need to focus on CHRIST and teach all repent asap , reject HIM NOT , or the lake of fire awaits all who deny HIM . Ever wonder why , when paul went into synaggoues he made an all out urgency to say repent and believe . Its because those who reject WILL BE Damned whether jew or gentile. THIS IS all we need to know and understand . Be careful of the ideas you plant in minds , YOU will be held accountable before GOD , the same as will I . ITS WHY preach JESUS ONLY and if a man rejects HIM , they will be damned . JESUS told this to jews , paul and the others told it to both jews and gentiles . LET THAT be our message too . And butero , Candace , Cletus , letters , can I get some help with this . The more that remind our sister , perhaps it will sink in deep . I can handle folks who teach eat meats or don't eat meats . What I canT handle is false hope . Their will be no life for any jew or gentile that rejects Christ , nope the wrath of GOD abides on them . And again we need to quit speculating and instead POINT TO JESUS who I know saves .
|
|
|
Post by Giller on Dec 14, 2018 1:16:20 GMT -5
Repentance is definitely needed.
Here is an interesting scripture:
2Co 7:10 (10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
True godly sorrow will work repentance to salvation.
Now it is a very interesting statement, as concerns this godly sorrow working repentance to salvation, yet not to be repented of.
I think what it means is possibly more simple than what we may think, here is a comment on this:
(David Guzik)
(...ii. Sorrow in itself doesn’t produce anything except bad feelings. But godly sorrow produces repentance. Since repentance is a change (in both thinking and action), we can tell if sorrow is really godly by seeing if it produces repentance. So godly sorrow cannot be measured by feelings or tears, but by what it produces....
...g. Since godly sorrow does such a great work, it is not to be regretted. It doesn’t feel good, but it does a good work. The sorrow of the world is different, because it produces death.
i. When sorrow is received or borne in a worldly way, it has the deadly effect of producing resentment or bitterness. We can regret that kind of sorrow. But godly sorrow produces a repentance, unto salvation, that is not to be regretted. “A repentance as a man shall never have cause to repent of. ...)
|
|
|
Post by Sister on Dec 14, 2018 7:58:38 GMT -5
You learning things wrong sister . And I must correct this mindset . Paul who was a jew , james , and those men KNEW that if even they did not continue in Christ or any jew or gentile that rejected JESUS is damned period . Those chosen Jews - the apostles cannot go back. For them the veil is lifted. That is different frienduff. They are chosen to lead and teach us. We cannot go back either after being revealed Jesus. You are going in a different direction now.
Any one that rejects Jesus can be damned, as if to have an unhappy life full of oppressions, sorrows and pains, but you said earlier that they are damned for the lake of fire. I say that is not true for what is the purpose of the millennium then?
Not true, they are all rejecting God now by rejecting his Son.
But what do the scriptures say?
Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Romans 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Romans 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Israel are called unto salvation to take part in the first resurrection of the saints. They reject Christ so cannot partake. Therefore God has chosen a remnant of them who never knew Christ to partake in his mercy. They will be placed in the kingdom of God in holy Jerusalem - in the flesh. Once there they will be taught, and not one of them will be lost. They have their names written in the Lamb's book of life and will receive their change at the 2nd resurrection. They obtained this second chance through mercy.
How else are they going to be provoked to jealousy frienduff? By not being in the first resurrection. Yet God has not forgotten them, for after the thousand years their turn will come and they will also receive their change. I thought all knew this? It's in scripture. I did a whole post about it a while back. Plenty of scriptures for you to look at. We should know what our Lord is going to do for he sent the prophets to tell us early.
My friend, I understand your concern, but I will have to find the scriptures now and show you the difference between speculation and truth.
Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
There are the poor who have missed out (who do not know Christ), and there are meek people existing still who do not yet know Christ also, Christ will stand up for them too because they were oppressed.
Isaiah 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
(In the kingdom of God on earth - inside holy Jerusalem. These are the remnants of Israel, and their offspring to come.
Isaiah 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isaiah 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
(The thousand year rest = the millenium. There are Gentiles who have been spared, who will be taught (that never knew Christ before)
Isaiah 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
When Christ returns. You see there is still mercy. Not so black and white.
|
|
|
Post by John on Dec 14, 2018 8:42:12 GMT -5
There will be Jews and gentiles saved during the great tribulation period and the millennial reign, however, that will be among those who are still living, not people that already died not knowing Jesus. Salvation can only come through faith in Christ. If you die not knowing him, it will be too late. The people of Israel who survive long enough to come to Christ will be saved. Once you die in a lost state, that is it. There is no more hope of escaping the lake of fire, no second chances. I did not directly respond to anyone because I am not sure if I fully grasp what everyone is believing. I absolutely reject the idea of corporate salvation of all Jews, even those who rejected Christ. I hope nobody is believing in that.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2018 8:52:41 GMT -5
I'm just trying to catch up with this thread...didn't realize that verse about gifts and callings had already been mentioned, though I am seeing it differently. How I understand this is that a genuine believer, having gifts and a calling, can go off track doctrinally, can even fall into gross sins, and still be exercising their gifts. However to the degree that they have gone astray is the degree to which their gifts and calling will be tainted and perverted.....yes by evil spirits, I agree. The devil moves in by stealth and starts to use the things of God as a weapon against His kingdom very deceitfully. (One reason I believe this is important to understand is so that we will keep our eyes on the Lord and never stop testing all things, rather than keeping our eyes on a man or minister per se and "entrusting" ourselves completely to a man....this is how millions are being led astray as we speak.) If such a one repents and cleans up their life and their doctrine they are back on track to continue in their gifts and calling in a pure and true way, since God did not take them away.
There are also those who used to know the Lord but backslide completely and begin to reject Christianity, and so they simply stop exercising their gifts (if they were even using them). Doesn't mean God revoked them, it just means that such have stopped exercising them. I've run across such ones on the internet and they are the worst anti-Christians there are...their hatred and aggression against God and the gospel seems to be worse than those who never believed. Dont' think I've ever seen a more grievous thing.
But these things don't mean everyone who is false and doing miracles etc, necessarily knew the Lord and had gifts to start with...there are also those who just engage in witchcraft and divination from the get-go, and never knew the Lord....I believe we see this in Catholicism for example, when they do "exorcisms"......and some also in the pulpits of evangelical ministries I wouldn't doubt.
Jesus saying to believe on Him because of the miracles He was doing......did not mean He was saying we are to always look to miracles in general as being necessarily a sign of God's approval. Since the scripture also says we are to test all things. I think that is what needs to be understood. But it certainly meant that He and His miracles were true and trustworthy. And wherever the man and the miracles are pure and true, then by all means we should receive them.
|
|