PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 14, 2018 8:55:19 GMT -5
When Paul speaks of Israel’s return to God, I don’t think he means every individual among the millions. Not every individual Jew worshipped God even at the height of Israel’s success in the OT. And I do agree with Frienduff, it’s dangerous to promote any back-door salvation that doesn’t require repentance. Repentance is not the gradual process of sanctification; it’s a spontaneous change of heart. People repented spontaneously all the time in Scripture. We have too many crystal-clear verses about the need to repent and call on Jesus for salvation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2018 9:10:21 GMT -5
Well, I am sticking with what JESUS said and the apostels said . Who are you speaking to?
This is true. There is no other name that we can be saved by.
This is not true because the scriptures say this;
Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Israel are doing this today. Speaking against Christ. They hate him....yet..... the scriptures say;
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
So are they damned?
Or has God got a plan for them?
.....that plan is mercy.
True, Israel will receive him when he gives mercy to them at his Coming. This is their time to go through Christ. They will not reject ever again, nor will they be damned.
God has blinded Israel because they rejected his Son. They cannot repent because of the veil covering their eyes. No comprender, no comprendere, no compreendo.
But God has chosen only a remnant of Israel (a few) to bring in to the kingdom and teach. They will multiply, and teach their children and their children's children. This is the Israel that will be saved, the Israel to come, starting from the remnants who were spared and bringing them into the new era.
I am talking about what's written in the KJV, not any other book. I see your point frienduff, we preach Jesus with urgency, but also must preach the truth. No errors ok?
I am going into the nitty gritty. We are talking about pure doctrine here concerning what's to come. I know the aim is to get into the first resurrection whether Jew or Gentile. This is the great reward Christ brings with him. SALVATION. Not all will be in that first resurrection. If any miss out, they cannot depend on being a remnant to get their free pass, because not all of them will be chosen for this particular election to save Israel's name. Same as with the remnants of the Gentiles who survive Armageddon. What comes after this thousand years is the great white throne judgement. This is a harsh judgement where the balances are weighed out, and all judged according to their deeds, so not many will make it through. You forget that there are heathen out there that served other gods, and didn't know the Lord. Are they all damned for the lake of fire? No. Which is why there is a great white throne judgement. God will look into every man's heart, and mercy will be given to some of them also who never knew the truth. All these people will still have to accept Christ before they can receive salvation, because he's the judge. No one gets past him but has to go through him.
So you are not technically correct when you say that all that reject Christ will automatically be condemned for the lake of fire - because there is a process involved before that day comes. There is mercy for some who never knew him because of the belief system they were born into, or lack of - but still, they will not be in the first resurrection - A great loss. Woe.
This first resurrection is the one that we aim for and why we preach Jesus because he is coming soon, and with great wrath on all those who practice unrighteousness. I can tell you now that when the door is shut, the punishments will come starting with the 7 angels and will escalate, but not all the ungodly will be killed and die in their sins for some will be spared as I already mentioned regarding the remnants and the Gentiles reserved for the new millennia.
There is a difference between individual Jews now, and the whole nation of Israel in the end (the remnant of survivors). Those Jews who reject Christ now are not written in the Book of Life and will end up in the lake of fire, the second death, after they are resurrected and judged. Whereas I believe those Jews (and Gentiles) who are still alive at the return of Christ and look on He who they pierced, and therefore don't need resurrecting, will repent and continue on living into the millennium with Israel restored and cleansed at that time. But meanwhile the sad reality is that souls are perishing every day without the gospel. But I am not sure whether this agrees with what you are saying or not Sister....are you saying that all Jews who are in the second resurrection will not experience the second death in the lake of fire? Or just that the survivors of the tribulation will not go to the lake of fire? (just a side-note....looking on Him who they pierced....I believe has significance...it means they are looking on Him like the Israelites looked on the snake that they had nailed to the pole and received clemency)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2018 9:26:01 GMT -5
<< So you are not technically correct when you say that all that reject Christ will automatically be condemned for the lake of fire - because there is a process involved before that day comes. There is mercy for some who never knew him because of the belief system they were born into, or lack of - but still, they will not be in the first resurrection - A great loss. Woe. >>
Sister......I believe what scripture says regarding rewards and punishments will be given out according to deeds, and God being the only one qualified to judge righteously, and judges have a range of powers for which they must exercise their judgment....meting out a whole wide range of both rewards and punishments justly...He being the only one who knows all the ins and outs of the battles each soul faced in their lives....but does not scripture say that all are without excuse because even creation teaches what may be known about God? Just discussing, and hoping we can all help each other, because it is very hard for one person to keep all scriptures in mind at the same time. I know I sometimes will start to look into something and then suddenly am reminded by a scripture that either tweeks or corrects what I was thinking, which I had forgotten about or not taken into consideration.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 14, 2018 9:28:04 GMT -5
God no longer winks at ignorance. I don’t know how clearer it can be. I’m not pretending to have all the answers about what happens when people stand before God’s throne, but we have to be careful about promoting these exemptions to the gospel.
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Post by John on Dec 14, 2018 9:47:38 GMT -5
There is no salvation for anyone without putting your faith in Christ. I don't care if those people were born in nations that never heard the message of the gospel. If there is a true seeker, God can make a way for them in this life, as he did with Cornelius and the eunuch. Those stories teach us lessons about how God operates.
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Post by Sister on Dec 14, 2018 9:57:26 GMT -5
So what you are saying is preach only part of the truth but not the whole truth? So let them think that when Christ comes that's it? All the wicked and all the heathen destroyed and thrown into the lake of fire? All done and finished? This whole plan that God has from beginning to end is truly wonderful frienduff. People need truth, not part but the whole lot. It shows we have a merciful God who is fair, even to some of those who have missed out on knowing Christ, God has a plan for some of them also. I like to preach truth, the whole lot, and when I do preach to people in person they say they have never heard it told this way before and love hearing it. It answers so many questions they always had. So it's good to give substance along with the message of repentance through Christ. And it's good to talk about these things with the brethren who are already in the faith so they can look into it themselves and learn something new.
It's judgement that awaits them, and if they lose out, the lake of fire. They will be judged according to the books,....according to their deeds. So what you are saying is not completely true, although we know many will go into the lake of fire.
I will be held accountable for preaching truth? All can be backed up frienduff. All is in scripture. In the KJV. We are witnessing the Word of God and the Word is our witness.
You can call on all but I will call on the Word of God to prove to you that you are not being fair in this. I do not ramble frienduff, but love to give good solid truth with scripture to back up. Of course I am accountable, but much has been given and I like to share. You are free to say whatever you like to me, and to the others also, so bring it all out. I will listen to what you have to say and will not get offended. I am grounded and always ready to be corrected in any way that needs to be addressed so the best way to start is to bring out the scriptures to back what you are saying and I will take a look at them.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2018 10:11:15 GMT -5
<< You forget that there are heathen out there that served other gods, and didn't know the Lord. Are they all damned for the lake of fire? No. Which is why there is a great white throne judgement. God will look into every man's heart, and mercy will be given to some of them also who never knew the truth. All these people will still have to accept Christ before they can receive salvation, because he's the judge. No one gets past him but has to go through him. >>
All will be judged at the judgment for their deeds in THIS life....isn't that is what is happening AT the judgment? Everyone will believe in Christ at the judgment, make no mistake, how could they not? But they will not be judged for what they do AT the judgment but for what they did BEFORE the judgment. Even the devil believes...and trembles. But he is condemned because of his deeds which are in rebellion to the Lord. Likewise all who lived in rebellion to the Lord, rejecting Christ, in this life, are condemned. Those heathen will be judged for that very thing you are saying gives them an excuse....serving other gods.
Unless you have scripture that shows otherwise....if so, please bring it and help us understand how you came to this conclusion.
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Post by John on Dec 14, 2018 10:16:53 GMT -5
First of all, I agree with Sister about teaching the whole Bible, but Sister, I am still not sure if I fully grasp what you are saying. I think we all agree there will be Jews and gentiles who get saved during the tribulation and millennial reign, so if that is what you are saying, I agree. If you are saying people can die lost but ultimately be saved, I disagree.
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Post by John on Dec 14, 2018 10:22:13 GMT -5
<< You forget that there are heathen out there that served other gods, and didn't know the Lord. Are they all damned for the lake of fire? No. Which is why there is a great white throne judgement. God will look into every man's heart, and mercy will be given to some of them also who never knew the truth. All these people will still have to accept Christ before they can receive salvation, because he's the judge. No one gets past him but has to go through him. >> All will be judged at the judgment for their deeds in THIS life....isn't that is what is happening AT the judgment? Everyone will believe in Christ at the judgment, make no mistake, how could they not? But they will not be judged for what they do AT the judgment but for what they did BEFORE the judgment. Even the devil believes...and trembles. But he is condemned because of his deeds which are in rebellion to the Lord. Likewise all who lived in rebellion to the Lord, rejecting Christ, in this life, are condemned. Those heathen will be judged for that very thing you are saying gives them an excuse....serving other gods. Unless you have scripture that shows otherwise....if so, please bring it and help us understand how you came to this conclusion. Yes. I absolutely believe that even those who never heard of Christ, so they served other gods, are ALL damned for the lake of fire, no exceptions.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 14, 2018 10:22:49 GMT -5
I am confused. Are we saying that lost people will encounter Jesus at the moment of death and perhaps be given a chance to accept Him? Or are we saying they will face judgment many years later, give an account of their good deeds on earth, and somehow negotiate a settlement with Jesus?
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Post by John on Dec 14, 2018 10:30:33 GMT -5
I am confused. Are we saying that lost people will encounter Jesus at the moment of death and perhaps be given a chance to accept Him? Or are we saying they will face judgment many years later, give an account of their good deeds on earth, and somehow negotiate a settlement with Jesus? If someone is teaching that an idol worshipper, like say the Egyptians that worshipped just about everything but the Lord, and died lost will get another chance to be saved at the White throne judgment, I don't see that in scripture!
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Post by John on Dec 14, 2018 11:25:25 GMT -5
Many years ago, I was a member of an Assemblies of God Church, and we had a guest speaker named Lari Goss. That is not the man who is the Christian record producer, but a prophecy teacher. He knew just about all there was to know about Revelation and other books of prophecy, as he specialized in them. He even memorized entire chapters word for word. I wish there were some of his teachings around on YouTube or somewhere.
Anyway, after his week of Bible teaching was over, and he had left, my Pastor was talking to me and said that Preacher Goss had some strange beliefs, like his belief that those who had never heard the message of the gospel in remote places were not saved. I was shocked to know anyone believed they were saved, as that is not Biblical. The reason why we send missionaries into the world is to save those people. If they are saved because of ignorance, why do that, and have them become accountable and see many wind up in hell? We are supposed to be trying to save souls, not damn souls. That was my first encounter with this idea, but he had no Biblical basis for his belief. It was all based on his personal feelings of fairness. The Bible states in Acts there is no other name given among men whereby we must be saved but Jesus, and those who try to enter the sheepfold any other way are thieves and robbers. That is plain to me. What am I missing here?
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 14, 2018 11:39:14 GMT -5
We see many testimonies of Muslims and others who met Jesus during prayer. He has appeared in visions to men caught up in Hezbollah, ISIS, you name it. Moral people who want to fear God who get bound up in lies. They are genuinely praying for the true God, and Jesus appears to them. Anyone who is a lost sheep will be given a chance.
It’s possible that a person could meet Jesus and worship Him, but maybe not fully realize He is Jesus from the Bible. I could see someone in this situation have their eyes opened upon seeing Him at their death. But there would have to be some kind of relationship there in the first place. They would have to be able to say, “ah, so it was You I’ve been chasing all this time...” I don’t believe a rebellious idol worshipper can reject all things related to Jesus yet still sonehow get a pass because of their culture.
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Post by John on Dec 14, 2018 11:46:52 GMT -5
We see many testimonies of Muslims and others who met Jesus during prayer. He has appeared in visions to men caught up in Hezbollah, ISIS, you name it. Moral people who want to fear God who get bound up in lies. They are genuinely praying for the true God, and Jesus appears to them. Anyone who is a lost sheep will be given a chance. It’s possible that a person could meet Jesus and worship Him, but maybe not fully realize He is Jesus from the Bible. I could see someone in this situation have their eyes opened upon seeing Him at their death. But there would have to be some kind of relationship there in the first place. They would have to be able to say, “ah, so it was You I’ve been chasing all this time...” I don’t believe a rebellious idol worshipper can reject all things related to Jesus yet still sonehow get a pass because of their culture. God made a way for Cornelius when he saw his sincere heart. I do believe what you said is possible.
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Post by Sister on Dec 15, 2018 1:17:27 GMT -5
When Paul speaks of Israel’s return to God, I don’t think he means every individual among the millions. Not every individual Jew worshipped God even at the height of Israel’s success in the OT. That's correct. There are many wicked amongst them also. Only the "chosen" remnants will be spared (end time), and from past generations also. They will be raised and brought back into the kingdom in their FLESH. All those of Israel who will not be brought back to live again in their flesh during the millennial reign will stay in their graves and be judged according their law, a thousand years later. This is a different judgement, and it's according to their law.
Going through the back door, means going through the shepherds for hire,....the wolves in sheep's clothing. It also means going through the worldly system where men are ordained of men, and not ordained of Christ. Must come directly through Christ, the Word of God. His rules. His example. Not doctrines of men.
I am not talking about going through the back door when it comes to who-ever God will give mercy too. He has appointed Christ, the judge, and only he can see into the hearts of men. He can give mercy or not. He goes right into the heart.
Now I want to make this clear, at the Coming, only those who have obeyed and followed the Lamb will take part in the first resurrection whether they are Jew or Gentile. At the coming they will receive their "inheritance". The kingdom is theirs. No judgement. The nation of Jews however, who do not accept Christ, or were born before he came have another chance to be taught Christ, but only the remnants chosen out of them. This is the purpose of the millennium, to forgive their iniquities and teach them repentance and truth. God will perform this because of his promise, that he will bring them back to him after the fullness of the gentiles come in and after the Gentiles receive their reward (eternal life/salvation) Now it's Israel's turn. That mercy means that they are given a fresh new start and the slate is wiped clean. Only the remnants don't forget. They will multiply and become a strong godly nation. An example to the rest of the nations.
When you tell the Lord you are going to repent you have to carry it through. Repentance is an everyday thing to stay away from sin. It doesn't only happen once, but is ongoing. DAILY. It's an everyday exercise. The more one has been given, the more he finds out what he needs to repent of. We have to feed to find out what is acceptable to the Lord and what is not. Many are not aware of all the sins out there, they just know a few, until they start seeking that word they start to find out many more things that need repenting. It gets deeper Candace, the deeper we go into his Word. How far we are willing to go? How much are we eager to learn? If you only give a little, you only gain a little.
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