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Post by discipler777 on Jan 16, 2019 1:08:21 GMT -5
We have a thread going in another section that was dealing with a great tasting, non alcoholic drink, and it was not designed to be a serious doctrinal discussion on matters like this. Still, we did have someone bring up the issue of coffee and tea, and suggested it was not allowed under the law of Moses, and the scripture verse he used was Leviticus 10:9
Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations.
My position is that this commandment was only for the Levitical Priests when they were fulfilling their duties in the tabernacle, and was only speaking of wine and alcoholic beverages. It has nothing to do with stimulants like caffeine, and doesn't apply to anyone but the people specifically mentioned. I am taking the discussion on this issue and moving it here.
. 1COR.3:16-17 (NKJV) = 16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple..During OT times, God's priests did not partake in wine/alcohol or intoxicating drinks. This was a commandment/law/Word of God. Today, that would include addictive substances like alcohol in beer/whiskey, caffeine in coffee/tea, nicotine in cigarettes, heroin, opiods, cocaine, marijuana, methamphetamine, prescription pills for mental disorders, etc.
During NT times, at ACTS.15:19-29 & 21:20-25, God has exempted Gentile Christians from such a non-essential or burdensome law, eg circumcision and kosher/clean foods. OTOH, Jewish Christians who were former Levite priests were required to continue to avoid wine or intoxicating drink. ....... For Gentile Christians who were formerly mostly lawless Gentiles, they can remain addicted to intoxicating substances after coming into faith in Jesus Christ because eternal life through faith trumps a good and long life on earth through the Law. It would be worse to compel intoxicated or addicted Gentile Christians to abstain, eg may die from a stroke.
Medically, it is not healthy for people to be addicted to intoxicating substances, especially alcohol and drugs. Remember how Michael Jackson died quite young from an overdose of propofol, an anesthetic drug, for his insomnia. God did not create humans to be dependent on intoxicating substances for their earthly life = drug-free.
Drug-addicts with damaged or altered brains are similar to Type-2 diabetics with damaged pancreas being "addicted" to costly artificial insulin daily for the rest of their lives - usually from a lifestyle of laziness and gluttony.
Essential or non-burdensome laws/commandments that should be kept by Gentile Christians are related to those mentioned at GAL.5:19-21, 1COR.6:9-11, REV.21:7-8, etc. . . IN ESSENTIALS UNITY, IN NON-ESSENTIALS LIBERTY, IN ALL THINGS JESUS CHRIST.
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Post by justinadams on Jan 16, 2019 6:15:08 GMT -5
If you read the Laws carefully, you will see that certain 'foods' were quite harmful. To keep to the Kosher diet is quite beneficial. When they talk of food, the apostles were only talking of 'clean' food. The others were NOT even considered food. If you take a look at the biological multiplication of certain foods, you will see that in times past it was harmful for consumption. Shell fish especially (aka The Japanese poison events) If you look at certain molds you will see that some are real killers. Washing hands BEFORE operations also saved many lives in early US medical history. Those stories are just so very sad. If the surgeons had read the Law (as they did later) many thousands of mothers would not have died in the natal wards.
If you take note of the Law it is of great benefit. I am not suggesting an OTT method of applying it, but from personal experience I have done much better since I started observing the Law seriously and learning from it.
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Post by John on Jan 16, 2019 6:22:12 GMT -5
I know that the Jews themselves, those who have not accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior, plan to eventually restore temple worship. Do you have any evidence that they look at that command in Leviticus 10:9 as saying the priests cannot drink coffee before doing their role in the temple? I am not aware of it. Wine and strong drink means alcohol. It doesn't mean caffeine. I don't think it means nicotine either, though smoking itself does harm your earthly temple, as your lungs were not made to take in smoke. Nicotine can be taken in other ways that are not harmful, though I never was a smoker and don't use nicotine. You need to show some kind of proof to back up your claim that this command included things that go beyond alcohol.
There is no evidence that caffeine does do harm to the body, so long as it is not abused by using massive doses. As a matter of fact, coffee and tea are both thought to have health benefits. Coffee is said to help stave off alzheimers disease, and is considered a good antioxidant, as is tea. There have been debates over the years about coffee, but the most recent conclusions is that it is beneficial, not harmful. As such, that scripture you used about harming your body does not apply, however I do want to point out that the scripture you did use was a New Testament scripture, not an Old Testament scripture, which means it certainly does apply to gentile Christians that do things harmful to their body.
Michael Jackson's situation was an example of malpractice on the part of a physician. He had a doctor in attendance giving him medication that is supposed to be used to put someone to sleep during surgery, and giving him that drug intravenously. Someone with his money could afford to do that. The doctor wasn't monitoring him closely, which led to his death. It wasn't so much an addiction as Jackson suffered from extreme insomnia, and that was how he tried to deal with it.
What was discussed in Acts is not about burdensome laws. It is about laws that were in the Old Testament that were given to the Jews to show they were separate from the unclean, and idol worshipping gentile nations around them. They would be circumcised, stay away from what was considered unclean foods, and have to observe the Sabbath day rest. These commandments were never given to the gentiles because they were actually showing the gentiles were unclean. The symbolism changed once the gentiles were brought into the faith. Now, through faith in Christ, they were no longer common or unclean, so there was no reason for them to observe laws that showed them to be common, unclean, and outside the faith. It has nothing to do with laws that were burdensome, though they may have become a burden, and it certainly has nothing to do with New Testament teachings, like the one about harming your temple. Gentiles are not exempt from that. It wasn't even mentioned in the law of Moses.
One quick note about the symbolism of certain laws, The symbolism about the Saturday Sabbath was not that the gentiles were unclean and common. The symbolism there was about entering into rest, and that was fulfilled through Christ. When a person gets saved, they enter into the Lord's rest through faith, and it is no longer about a day on the calendar. It has nothing to do with unconditional security either. It is simply about putting one's trust in Christ as their savior. Laws dealing with God's standard of holiness do still matter to all Christians today, and Paul makes mention of many of them in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and also in Galatians, and says that those who are guilty shall not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Those are different from symbolic Old Testament laws.
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Post by justinadams on Jan 16, 2019 6:27:00 GMT -5
If God liberated us from the law, why is this even an issue? Ha. I see far more rhetoric about various ways we can avoid keeping the law than keeping it. Really odd that. I see in the Tanach that Yahweh repeatedly and I mean VERY OFTEN talks about observing His Sabbath and the benefits of doing so. Yet I see great effort and rather whimsical posts about reasons we can ignore the Sabbath. The Sabbath was instigated in the beginning - yes before sin entered into the world. Worth thinking about. We swallow camels whilst straining at gnats I fear...
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Post by John on Jan 16, 2019 6:27:24 GMT -5
If you read the Laws carefully, you will see that certain 'foods' were quite harmful. To keep to the Kosher diet is quite beneficial. When they talk of food, the apostles were only talking of 'clean' food. The others were NOT even considered food. If you take a look at the biological multiplication of certain foods, you will see that in times past it was harmful for consumption. Shell fish especially (aka The Japanese poison events) If you look at certain molds you will see that some are real killers. Washing hands BEFORE operations also saved many lives in early US medical history. Those stories are just so very sad. If the surgeons had read the Law (as they did later) many thousands of mothers would not have died in the natal wards. If you take note of the Law it is of great benefit. I am not suggesting an OTT method of applying it, but from personal experience I have done much better since I started observing the Law seriously and learning from it. I have heard claims that a kosher diet is more healthy. I have not taken the time to do any in depth study on that, so I would not argue that point, anymore than I will argue with a vegetarian over his diet, and if it is more healthy. What I have found is that many of the illnesses people have is from under cooked foods, more than the type of food. For instance, we know the dangers of under cooked pork, chicken and shell fish. I cook my food till it is almost burnt, and is burnt in the eyes of many people. I have no problem with people choosing to eat kosher, be a vegetarian or even a vegan if that is what they feel is best for them.
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Post by John on Jan 16, 2019 6:29:43 GMT -5
If God liberated us from the law, why is this even an issue? Ha. I see far more rhetoric about various ways we can avoid keeping the law than keeping it. Really odd that. I see in the Tanach that Yahweh repeatedly and I mean VERY OFTEN talks about observing His Sabbath and the benefits of doing so. Yet I see great effort and rather whimsical posts about reasons we can ignore the Sabbath. The Sabbath was instigated in the beginning - yes before sin entered into the world. Worth thinking about. We swallow camels whilst straining at gnats I fear... The Sabbath day was hallowed before the law, but the actual law was not in place that everyone must rest in the manner prescribed in the law of Moses till that actual law was given to the Jews. In the New Testament, we are told that we enter into God's rest when we come to the Christian faith and put our trust in Christ. The Sabbath rest is fulfilled in Him.
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Post by justinadams on Jan 16, 2019 6:41:57 GMT -5
I encourage people to read about the Law and not to Profane the Sabbath of the Lord.
What they do with that is up to them. ...not one jot or tittle...
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Post by John on Jan 16, 2019 6:46:26 GMT -5
I encourage people to read about the Law and not to Profane the Sabbath of the Lord. What they do with that is up to them. ...not one jot or tittle... Correct, but what does one jot or one tittle mean? The law included things that clearly don't pertain to us today, not because one jot or one tittle was done away with, but because they were fulfilled through Christ. Why is it we don't still have the Levitical Priesthood in place and have animal sacrifices? That is part of the law, but it was fulfilled. The same thing applies to the Sabbath. It has been fulfilled as we enter into Jesus' rest.
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Post by justinadams on Jan 16, 2019 7:06:29 GMT -5
I encourage people to read about the Law and not to Profane the Sabbath of the Lord. What they do with that is up to them. ...not one jot or tittle... Correct, but what does one jot or one tittle mean? The law included things that clearly don't pertain to us today, not because one jot or one tittle was done away with, but because they were fulfilled through Christ. Why is it we don't still have the Levitical Priesthood in place and have animal sacrifices? That is part of the law, but it was fulfilled. The same thing applies to the Sabbath. It has been fulfilled as we enter into Jesus' rest.
Yeshua said He was Lord of the Sabbath, indicating it was given by Him as a perpetual reminder to mankind of His Creation.
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Post by John on Jan 16, 2019 7:14:18 GMT -5
Correct, but what does one jot or one tittle mean? The law included things that clearly don't pertain to us today, not because one jot or one tittle was done away with, but because they were fulfilled through Christ. Why is it we don't still have the Levitical Priesthood in place and have animal sacrifices? That is part of the law, but it was fulfilled. The same thing applies to the Sabbath. It has been fulfilled as we enter into Jesus' rest.
Yeshua said He was Lord of the Sabbath, indicating it was given by Him as a perpetual reminder to mankind of His Creation. He is Lord of the Sabbath, and when we accept the Lord of the Sabbath as our Lord and savior, placing our trust in Him, we enter into His rest, and are keeping the Sabbath. It is no longer about a single calendar day.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jan 16, 2019 8:49:21 GMT -5
As I drink this coffee I pray and read and get into God presence. If it is wrong He has not told me about it yet. "Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves." - Romans 14:22
Well, it is common when we see other believers worried in drinking and eating wrong and (possibly) going to hell.
"But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse." - 1 Corinthians 8:8
"having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace..." - Romans 14:22
But it is not the case, we can eat what we wish (if we have peace about it). The only restrictions we have is blood, as far as I know:
"For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well..." - Acts 15:28-29
"...For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." - Matthew 11:30
The problem when people does not understand and they start to get over worried about foods, drinks and Sabbath keeping.
Jesus has made it clear that is lawful to do good on the Sabbath, which means that you keep the Sabbath by simply following Jesus.
"For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath." - Matthew 12:8
If you are following Christ and worshiping in spirit and truth you cannot simply do your own will on the Sabbath.
"If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the Lord honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words, Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord; And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth, And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father. The mouth of the Lord has spoken." - Isaiah 58:13-14
Because worrying too much about foods and drinks and start condemning others for eating and drinking wrong is something that can blind us.
"Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye." - Matthew 7:5
Because what profit is there if someone abstain from pork and yet commit adultery and blasphemies?!
"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." - Matthew 15:19
"Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man." - Matthew 15:11
Then you start developing a prideful heart and that will cause you to keep more and more distant from the (true) law of God, which can only be fulfilled by faith working through love.
"Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." - Romans 13:10
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love." - Galatians 5:6
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Post by John on Jan 16, 2019 9:00:52 GMT -5
You bring up good points Letters. The brethren that think you must observe the Saturday Sabbath do so according to their understanding and in faith to God. To not observe it is sin to them, and I fully respect their decision not to work on Saturday. To those who can't drink any wine or coffee or tea, or must eat kosher, the same thing applies. As long as you have that conviction, follow your conscience. Without faith, those things are sin to you. Thanks for those reminders Letters!
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jan 16, 2019 10:18:24 GMT -5
We have two separate issues developing here. One is whether Gentiles ought to keep OT teaching on things like wine, and the other is whether caffeine is in the same class as wine.
Caffeine does change our brain. That’s a medical fact. The crazy part is that it causes a permanent change. We can break an addiction to get to the point that we don’t need it, but our brain will never go back to looking like it never had it.
HOWEVER — the question is whether that change is for better or worse. Medical studies have consistently shown that caffeine improves our memory, focus, and demeanor. It doesn’t make us ‘drunk’ or ‘stoned’ or slower on the reflex. It actually improves our mental health with no bad side effects.
And here’s where the plot thickens. There are certain foods we can add to our diet that go far beyond brain chemistry. Some superfoods get down to the DNA level in our bodies to actually change our DNA expression. Yes, you can literally, physically improve the new DNA your body produces (new skin layers, new hair, fresh blood cells, etc) by eating a regimen of superfoods. Look at a spice like turmeric, for example, which is one the foods. Does this make turmeric a drug? All the food we eat affects our bodies in ways we have yet to understand.
Now please understand, I’m not making excuses to go out and smoke marijuana. Common sense tells you when a substance makes you stoned. Don’t put anything in your body that makes you feel weird. The question is whether an improved demeanor with no intoxication counts as something bad.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jan 16, 2019 10:51:24 GMT -5
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another — Romans 2:14-15
There is a certain moral code which the whole human race understands. Every great civilization had a legal system based around certain values. Stealing was always a crime. Lying was always wrong. Sure there were individuals who did those things (just as there were bad Jews who did those things) but culturally they all knew right from wrong. This moral standard applies to us all, and it doesn’t change when we become Christians. In fact as Christians we are called to uphold this moral goodness at a higher level.
For Gentile Christians, the moral codes of the OT law should be a no brainer. Thou shalt not steal — you know good and well that stealing is wrong, so don’t even argue. Our dilemma comes down to things in the OT which were unique to the Jews. Things like circumcision and kosher diets. These things have no “moral’ value in the sense of how we treat people, but they were covenant signs between a people and their God. Are all people grafted in to that unique covenant? When we read in the NT where Gentiles were freed from the law, it always, always revolves around those unique covenant signs.
These unique signs were each translated into spirit for the new covenant. Circumcision went from physical body to the heart. The signs are still there, but not as physical observation. When Gentiles try to physically manifest what was given only to Jews, we are coveting a life of bondage to a law that wasn’t meant for us — which was Paul’s whole message in Galatians.
We as Gentile Christians are called to obey the universal right/wrong standards we know to be decent in the OT, and to honor the spiritual meaning of the convenant signs.
I fully expect this post to be ripped to shreds.
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Post by John on Jan 16, 2019 11:13:13 GMT -5
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another — Romans 2:14-15There is a certain moral code which the whole human race understands. Every great civilization had a legal system based around certain values. Stealing was always a crime. Lying was always wrong. Sure there were individuals who did those things (just as there were bad Jews who did those things) but culturally they all knew right from wrong. This moral standard applies to us all, and it doesn’t change when we become Christians. In fact as Christians we are called to uphold this moral goodness at a higher level. For Gentile Christians, the moral codes of the OT law should be a no brainer. Thou shalt not steal — you know good and well that stealing is wrong, so don’t even argue. Our dilemma comes down to things in the OT which were unique to the Jews. Things like circumcision and kosher diets. These things have no “moral’ value in the sense of how we treat people, but they were covenant signs between a people and their God. Are all people grafted in to that unique covenant? When we read in the NT where Gentiles were freed from the law, it always, always revolves around those unique covenant signs. These unique signs were each translated into spirit for the new covenant. Circumcision went from physical body to the heart. The signs are still there, but not as physical observation. When Gentiles try to physically manifest what was given only to Jews, we are coveting a life of bondage to a law that wasn’t meant for us — which was Paul’s whole message in Galatians. We as Gentile Christians are called to obey the universal right/wrong standards we know to be decent in the OT, and to honor the spiritual meaning of the convenant signs. I fully expect this post to be ripped to shreds. I see it almost exactly as you do, but I would say that no Christians, whether they be Jews in the natural or gentiles in the natural, need follow OT laws of separation, as there is only one body of Christ. I think your post was excellent!
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