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Post by John on Mar 10, 2020 4:04:13 GMT -5
Wanna hear something beautiful . love this . love it . Did the apostels walk in the SPIRIT . YES THEY DID . And by that same spirit , they warned big time , they gave out continuous reminders on how to live and not live , walk and not walk . To obey the SPIRIT and not the flesh . they were huge on obedience and that who we obey IS WHOSE we are . I truly believe and know they walked in the SPIRIT and wrote those letters by that same spirit . WE ought to sound LIKE THEY DID . Love it sister . love and embrace it . I'm not trying to be an apostle or even a preacher or any such....just sharing and discussing this issue is all. But I think some clarification might be needed. Look at the title of this thread... Christians Living as Under the Law. I know where you live the biggest problem is licentiousness and sinful believers, so that is what you are always fighting. But what I have observed a lot of is the opposite....it is that most believers make an effort to live righteously but by their own strength, as if they were under Law....that is just the reality of how it is with most believers in most churches that I have seen, and I just have not come across many that are truly walking in the Spirit in all my 34 years of knowing the Lord. Most in churches and religious circles are still walking as children....under the tutelage of law and serving in the old way of the letter. That to me is another way of saying that they aren't growing to learn how to walk in the Spirit, their love isn't being matured/perfected. Paul was trying to instruct and help believers to understand that in Christ they needed to not walk after the letter of the law, but walk in the spirit and put to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit. Recently the Lord helped me to understand what "perfect love casts out fear" means...I had wondered about it for a long time, wondering what fear was cast out...thinking it couldn't mean to cast out the fear/worship of the Lord. The Lord was gracious to finally help me understand that it is talking about the bondage to fear that comes from being under the Law...that is the fear that gets cast out when our love is perfected...which means matured. I posted on this recently but don't know how many agreed or whether any even saw it. Rom 8:14-15 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 1Jo 4:17-19 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect (mature) love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment (punishment). He that feareth is not made perfect (matured) in love. We love him, because he first loved us. Gal 4:1-3 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant (slave) though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: Gal 3:24-25 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a [fn]tutor. When we first come to faith most of us don't even initially know what sin is, until we are taught out of the word of God, His laws. We are infants and children in the beginning and need to be trained and disciplined, tutored, by the Law. But we need to grow beyond all that to learn the ways of the Spirit and how to walk after the Spirit and no longer serving out of our flesh and self effort. I don't really have any unction for "explaining" things in writing, and this is not my best time of day....hope this doesn't just make things more confusing, but I thought I should at least try to make it more clear what I'm talking about. Most believers are living as though under the Law....as children/slaves, that's just the reality (for those not in the licentious camp)....and I believe that's okay for a little while, but that people need to grow and mature past that stage. Where I have mentioned growing past being a child/slave in bondage to fear, to being a matured bride serving out of free will and love, not fear. Many don't though, although I believe and hope that more will as we get closer to the return of the Lord. I am going to have to go back through this thread, because a lot has been posted since I wrote the OP. The point I was making is that people are living as under the law because they have not learned to trust Jesus to give them the ability to cease from sin. Under the law, it was a constant struggle, but under the New Covenant, Jesus has set us free from the bondage of sin to serve him. We do not have to continue to battle in bondage to those chains. We can simply choose to get up and walk in the Spirit. I do not know that I disagree with anything you said.
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Galatians 5:16-18
Under the law, they did not have the Spirit living on the inside like Holy Ghost baptized believers do today. It was just about following the law as best they could in their own strength and ability. Today, we have the Spirit of God on the inside helping us. If we are led of the Spirit, we are not under the law. Then again, if we are not led by the Spirit, the law still shows us right from wrong. How do we know if we are led of the Spirit? By our lifestyle. Notice what it says in the following verses. Galatians 5:19-26
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Once you understand what Paul is really trying to convey in Romans, you can more easily understand what he is saying here in Galatians and in his other epistles about the Spirit-led life as opposed to walking after the flesh.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2020 7:20:03 GMT -5
I'm not trying to be an apostle or even a preacher or any such....just sharing and discussing this issue is all. But I think some clarification might be needed. Look at the title of this thread... Christians Living as Under the Law. I know where you live the biggest problem is licentiousness and sinful believers, so that is what you are always fighting. But what I have observed a lot of is the opposite....it is that most believers make an effort to live righteously but by their own strength, as if they were under Law....that is just the reality of how it is with most believers in most churches that I have seen, and I just have not come across many that are truly walking in the Spirit in all my 34 years of knowing the Lord. Most in churches and religious circles are still walking as children....under the tutelage of law and serving in the old way of the letter. That to me is another way of saying that they aren't growing to learn how to walk in the Spirit, their love isn't being matured/perfected. Paul was trying to instruct and help believers to understand that in Christ they needed to not walk after the letter of the law, but walk in the spirit and put to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit. Recently the Lord helped me to understand what "perfect love casts out fear" means...I had wondered about it for a long time, wondering what fear was cast out...thinking it couldn't mean to cast out the fear/worship of the Lord. The Lord was gracious to finally help me understand that it is talking about the bondage to fear that comes from being under the Law...that is the fear that gets cast out when our love is perfected...which means matured. I posted on this recently but don't know how many agreed or whether any even saw it. Rom 8:14-15 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 1Jo 4:17-19 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect (mature) love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment (punishment). He that feareth is not made perfect (matured) in love. We love him, because he first loved us. Gal 4:1-3 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant (slave) though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: Gal 3:24-25 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a [fn]tutor. When we first come to faith most of us don't even initially know what sin is, until we are taught out of the word of God, His laws. We are infants and children in the beginning and need to be trained and disciplined, tutored, by the Law. But we need to grow beyond all that to learn the ways of the Spirit and how to walk after the Spirit and no longer serving out of our flesh and self effort. I don't really have any unction for "explaining" things in writing, and this is not my best time of day....hope this doesn't just make things more confusing, but I thought I should at least try to make it more clear what I'm talking about. Most believers are living as though under the Law....as children/slaves, that's just the reality (for those not in the licentious camp)....and I believe that's okay for a little while, but that people need to grow and mature past that stage. Where I have mentioned growing past being a child/slave in bondage to fear, to being a matured bride serving out of free will and love, not fear. Many don't though, although I believe and hope that more will as we get closer to the return of the Lord. I am going to have to go back through this thread, because a lot has been posted since I wrote the OP. The point I was making is that people are living as under the law because they have not learned to trust Jesus to give them the ability to cease from sin. Under the law, it was a constant struggle, but under the New Covenant, Jesus has set us free from the bondage of sin to serve him. We do not have to continue to battle in bondage to those chains. We can simply choose to get up and walk in the Spirit. I do not know that I disagree with anything you said.
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Galatians 5:16-18
Under the law, they did not have the Spirit living on the inside like Holy Ghost baptized believers do today. It was just about following the law as best they could in their own strength and ability. Today, we have the Spirit of God on the inside helping us. If we are led of the Spirit, we are not under the law. Then again, if we are not led by the Spirit, the law still shows us right from wrong. How do we know if we are led of the Spirit? By our lifestyle. Notice what it says in the following verses. Galatians 5:19-26
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Once you understand what Paul is really trying to convey in Romans, you can more easily understand what he is saying here in Galatians and in his other epistles about the Spirit-led life as opposed to walking after the flesh.
Yes...agree that he was trying to teach believers to learn to walk in the Spirit rather than relying on their own self-effort and law. It just seems from observation that most new genuine believers receive grace for some things, (and some receive greater or lesser measure of faith and grace, as the Lord apportions it), but for the rest of it the reality is that they begin their Christian life with a lot of self-effort and law....until they mature and learn to walk in the spirit. Remember Paul saying " you who are spiritual restore such a one"....that seems to be speaking to those who were spiritually mature, and implying also that not all were spiritual yet. So it's something we are to grow into, from what I'm understanding. When I first came to faith in Christ, some things fell off me automatically by grace, but other sins I had to learn from the word of God (laws) what they were and be willing to lay them down, and sometimes a battle was necessary, while other things it was no problem....and even there were still other inner things that affected my walk, that the Lord had to bring to light, bring to my awareness...some of it God has healed and other things I'm still dealing with and seeking Him for. It's as though...theoretically everything is available to us and laid up in heaven for us from the beginning, and that is how the language of scripture presents it to us...but the reality on the ground is that most just don't seem to get hold of everything automatically in this life except that we grow, and as we grow. Funny how there are things you can read in scripture many times over but they don't even register until you have grown enough to notice them and then seek to obey it. I spent 15 years in churches, and in all that time things like walking in the Spirit and being spiritual never even registered with me, until some time after I was led out of the churches and began to seek the Lord alone. (But the years I spent in churches, were the years that God was breaking me....who falls on the Rock will be broken...that is a necessary thing in order to grow spiritually....the veil of our flesh being broken through trials). Well it's been nearly 20 years in the wilderness and I still fall short, so I sure don't claim to be one of God's fastest learning children. It sometimes just seems as though we're still growing and developing in the womb, conceived of the Holy Spirit UNTIL we become fully developed sons and born of the spirit....aiming to grow into the full stature of Christ...giving birth to Him in our life so to speak. The spiritual language of scripture is often paradoxical....it's all there for us already, and we are imputed to be full grown and born of the Spirit, even though in reality most of us are in various gestational stages of a process of bringing it down from heaven into our life, apprehending all those promises....until finally entering the land of promise ("thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven")...which is the land of sabbath rest, and truly resting from our own works of self-effort, as we learn to reckon ourselves dead and no longer we who live but Christ lives in us. Aiming for the plumbline that scripture presents to us. Hope that makes sense...? Thanks all for listening, I wanted to try and lay this out there and examine it.
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Post by Giller on Mar 10, 2020 8:49:01 GMT -5
Well the truth is when we become born again, all we need is there, we have been made free and so on, but now we have to grow in what God has done for us, and it is a life long growth, there is always something to some degree that keeps on falling off.
And of course we always encourage one another in walking in Spirit, and the ability to do so is there, but we have to grow in these things as well, for we may have all these promises, but now we have to realize what we have, and start walking in what we have.
And growing in this is a life long process.
I do not care how long you have been a Christian, there is always more to grow in, and more to know, and we can be a Christian for 100's of years, and yet still there will be an area somewhere that needs to change, that needs to be conformed, and so on, and so on.
The truth is we all fall into selfishness at times, in one way or another, and there are some things we still yet do not see.
And we are all called to fight the good fight of faith, I do not care how mature you are in Christ.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2020 9:47:01 GMT -5
A lot of the time, what is causing trouble for new Christians are oppressing spirits they never got rid of. They will crawl on their shoulder and continually entice them to do sinful things. They have to learn to cast them off of them. Yes, I believe when people have intrusive thoughts it is often due to evil spirits and sometimes it is when we have opened the door to the devil, though I wonder if we can have inherited problems as well. Just that we can't sort of blame the devil for everything, but it is when we take ownership of our own thoughts as well as behaviour then we can repent and be forgiven and cleansed. Repentance is a huge key in the battle against the enemy of our souls. And taking ownership of our sins and repenting does not mean we are condemned....a humble and contrite heart the Lord does not despise or turn away.
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Post by Giller on Mar 10, 2020 10:05:11 GMT -5
Concerning the main subject of the op, I will have to meditate, on whether it is referring to, Paul struggling as a young Christian, or if it is talking about Paul as a pharisee trying to live by the law.
All I do know is that many young Christians do truly struggle in their walk with God, and they may know the term of having victory in Christ, but do not know how to walk in that victory, and try to have victory through their own self empowered effort, sometimes not even realizing that they are doing so.
This is truly a real problem, it is not fake, in fact it is a huge problem in the church.
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Post by Giller on Mar 10, 2020 11:18:11 GMT -5
In our Christian walk it is important that we know what different things are for.
Today we still need the moral law, and the moral law is for conviction, and not for life, and Christ, through him and what he done, is for life.
We have life through a person, we put our faith in Christ, we put our faith in his finished work, we put our faith in Christ to save us and to keep us, but we do not put our faith in the law to keep us and save us.
Yes we need the law, for it is just and good.
We need to know what is right and what is wrong.
But we need to know what these things are for, and not what they are not for.
The moral law is for conviction, and so we know right from wrong, but it is not there for victory, the victory we have in Christ, is in the person of Jesus Christ.
But what many Christians try to do, in order to get victory over sin, is they put their faith in the law, or in their performance in order to get victory over sin, which always ends up in failure.
These problems are real, and they are a big problem in church circles.
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Post by Giller on Mar 10, 2020 11:28:50 GMT -5
I am a type of person, especially as concerns the Christian walk, who does not run away from the problem, but wants to tackle the problem head on.
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Post by John on Mar 10, 2020 18:10:19 GMT -5
It is nice seeing people think outside the box. Where I attend church, they hold to sanctification as Wesley teaches it. What John said does make sense regarding Paul's meaning. I would add one thing.. Even if John is right, and I am thinking he is, we still have to choose to walk in the Spirit each day. A born again Christian could still choose to sin, but they are without excuse, because Jesus broke the chains of bondage to sin, and empowers us to live right. There still remains a choice. I can choose to walk according to the flesh, but that will lead to forfeiting my inheritance in God's Kingdom. There is no question about it. We do have to choose to walk in the Spirit. We have to choose to take up our cross daily. We have to choose to resist the devil. God does not take away our free will when we are born again, but the Spirit does empower those who want to live in a way pleasing to God to do so. We do not remain hopeless slaves to sin.
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Post by John on Mar 10, 2020 18:19:40 GMT -5
I also believe that we do not have to sin 24 hours a day, otherwise there would not be victory in Christ. The bible says this: Rom 6:11-12 (11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. We are able to not let sin reign in our mortal bodies, for it says so. Heb 4:15 (15) For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. And even though we do not have to sin, and have victory in Christ, that does not mean that there aren't Christians who struggle at times with sin. And these Christians do not want to sin, for they do not seek to go after the way of sin, just have a harder time with getting victory over this one or that one. Now we do have victory in Christ Jesus, but also we are continuously growing in Christ Jesus, and there are some who are genuinely Christian which have a hard time walking in victory in certain areas. And even though we do not have to sin, we know as Christians that it happens from time to time. And in those times we need to confess them before God, and yes we are being continuously sanctified, that is truth, and if not, it is because you are not growing, and that is not a good sign. Yes, I'm just talking about growing and reaching for that more excellent way.....which is based on love rather than duty and being slaves to fear....perfect love casting out that fear. How do you reconcile what you just said to Philippians 2:12?
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
You are saying we should not fear, and this verse is saying to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
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Post by John on Mar 10, 2020 18:31:44 GMT -5
A lot of the time, what is causing trouble for new Christians are oppressing spirits they never got rid of. They will crawl on their shoulder and continually entice them to do sinful things. They have to learn to cast them off of them. This has literally happened to me. I think I am learning to cast them off. This happens to all of us, more than most realize. A lot of the time, it is demonic spirits that are suggesting we do things that are not right. That does not mean we are not responsible, and can say "the devil made me do it," if we give in. It does mean that every bad thought we have is not us, and it also means that just because a bad thought enters our mind, we did not necessarily commit a sin. We are taught in scripture to take our thoughts captive to the pulling down of strong holds.
Giller has been discussing the struggles that many Christians go through. I know that sincere Christians will struggle with addictions and sins. This can happen because there are evil spirits they have not dealt with, and they are oppressing them and continually pushing them to light up that cigarette or get drunk or watch pornography, or any number of sinful things. The person thinks it is all them, but sometimes it is an oppressing spirit, and if you cast it off, you are free.
There are also physical addictions that are real. You get saved, but you are already addicted to nicotine and struggle with smoking or chewing tobacco or something like that. The addiction is real, and it takes God's help to get free, but I know the Lord is able. I have seen people delivered instantly from addictions like this. You just have to be sincere before God when you ask for His help.
But the main point I am making here is that at least some of the things we are experiencing are from external sources. They are not our real desires. We really do want to do right, but it is an oppressing spirit buffeting us. It makes us believe we have to do this or that, and we do not. What we need to is to cast away that spirit.
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Post by John on Mar 10, 2020 18:41:18 GMT -5
Concerning the main subject of the op, I will have to meditate, on whether it is referring to, Paul struggling as a young Christian, or if it is talking about Paul as a pharisee trying to live by the law. All I do know is that many young Christians do truly struggle in their walk with God, and they may know the term of having victory in Christ, but do not know how to walk in that victory, and try to have victory through their own self empowered effort, sometimes not even realizing that they are doing so. This is truly a real problem, it is not fake, in fact it is a huge problem in the church. Within my own self, I am convinced he was speaking of when he was a Pharisee, but even in what you are asking, whether it was at that time or as a young Christian, neither of us seem to believe that Paul is saying that he continues to struggle with sin as a mature Christian. When he speaks of this struggle, even though it can come across in present tense, it is speaking of in his past.
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Post by frienduff on Mar 10, 2020 20:09:23 GMT -5
I am a type of person, especially as concerns the Christian walk, who does not run away from the problem, but wants to tackle the problem head on. take the bull by the horns . lambs don't run they contend for the true faith . HANDS UP and PRAISE THE LORD . THE LORD IS WITH HIS OWN .
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Post by Tabitha3319 on Mar 11, 2020 4:18:42 GMT -5
Has anyone heard of Torah Observant Christians?
They try to keep the Sabbath, the dietary laws and everything from the Torah, but they say they believe in Jesus or Yeshua.
Not good, I've concluded.
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Post by frienduff on Mar 11, 2020 6:25:50 GMT -5
Has anyone heard of Torah Observant Christians? They try to keep the Sabbath, the dietary laws and everything from the Torah, but they say they believe in Jesus or Yeshua. Not good, I've concluded. Never heard of this group .
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Post by Tabitha3319 on Mar 11, 2020 6:45:21 GMT -5
Has anyone heard of Torah Observant Christians? They try to keep the Sabbath, the dietary laws and everything from the Torah, but they say they believe in Jesus or Yeshua. Not good, I've concluded. Never heard of this group . At first, I thought it might be cool because, oh they're trying to be obedient. They want to be Holy! But they are doing it in a way that rejects the blessing of Walking by the Spirit instead of by the letter.
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