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Post by John on Sept 8, 2020 20:46:32 GMT -5
One additional thing I need to point out. Jesus Christ does have the power and authority to forgive sins. If he did want to grant a full pardon to anyone, He can do that, but I am not free to tell people they should not be fearful because Jesus is merciful. I have no way of knowing when those pardons may be given. Something I learned not that long ago....Jesus has given us authority to forgive sins too. We have taken up His mantle on earth and are here to extend His mercy and forgiveness to others. Jhn 20:22-23 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. I believe there may be instances where we are to withhold forgiveness though, in instances where discipline is needed, eg, if someone in the church is committing gross sins and refuses to change their ways. Giving them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh until they repent....is because of forgiveness being withheld until they repent. Understand this is to be led by the Holy Spirit though, not our flesh or what seemeth right to us. I think that is talking about sins done to us, not just sins in general. If it were within our power to do that, we would be in the same position as the Catholic Priests claim to be, and the practice of confession would be right. We could in theory grant forgiveness to the entire world. I get what you are saying about instances to withhold it, but what if a single Christian chose to absolve the entire world of their sins. Do you really believe we have such power, based on that verse? I have never understood it that way.
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Post by watchful on Sept 9, 2020 6:24:02 GMT -5
Something I learned not that long ago....Jesus has given us authority to forgive sins too. We have taken up His mantle on earth and are here to extend His mercy and forgiveness to others. Jhn 20:22-23 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. I believe there may be instances where we are to withhold forgiveness though, in instances where discipline is needed, eg, if someone in the church is committing gross sins and refuses to change their ways. Giving them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh until they repent....is because of forgiveness being withheld until they repent. Understand this is to be led by the Holy Spirit though, not our flesh or what seemeth right to us. I think that is talking about sins done to us, not just sins in general. If it were within our power to do that, we would be in the same position as the Catholic Priests claim to be, and the practice of confession would be right. We could in theory grant forgiveness to the entire world. I get what you are saying about instances to withhold it, but what if a single Christian chose to absolve the entire world of their sins. Do you really believe we have such power, based on that verse? I have never understood it that way.
I just know what the scripture says brother and how the Lord was gracious to open it to me, just a year or two ago I think it was. One problem with Catholicism and many churches is that they do everything by the letter, by rote formulas and rituals, by the flesh in other words, and not by the Spirit. We are to be led by the Spirit, and be His vessels and ambassadors, representatives, on earth. Jesus did nothing but what He saw the Father doing. We are likewise only to exercise the will of God in any situation. If He is forgiving someone their sins He can use us as His ambassador to extend that forgiveness and forgiveness can flow to someone like when Jesus felt virtue/power flow out of Him. If the Lord is disciplining someone in the church He may withhold forgiveness for a season. Forgiveness looses someone from their sin, while not forgiving keeps them bound in it. "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." And "Whatsoever sins you remit will be remitted and whatsoever sins you retain will be retained". These are both speaking of the same thing...forgiving or not forgiving....setting someone free from their bondage to sin or binding someone in their sin if they need that for a season so that they can learn the hard way so to speak. Not based on our own decision or judgment, like the Catholics officially and officiously excommunicate people who don't go by their rules, but in simplicity and by the leading of the Holy Spirit. I'm sure there is more to get hold of with this things, but that is understanding I have so far. I know it's quite amazing and a lot to take in, I felt the same and still do....the wonderful ways of the Lord, and how we are to be a spiritual people, people of that new way of the Spirit. Anyway, maybe seek the Lord about it, or keep it on a back burner for now....nobody has to accept anything that the Holy Spirit doesn't personally show them and convict them of......He is the one who leads us into all truth.
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Post by John on Sept 9, 2020 6:43:03 GMT -5
I think that is talking about sins done to us, not just sins in general. If it were within our power to do that, we would be in the same position as the Catholic Priests claim to be, and the practice of confession would be right. We could in theory grant forgiveness to the entire world. I get what you are saying about instances to withhold it, but what if a single Christian chose to absolve the entire world of their sins. Do you really believe we have such power, based on that verse? I have never understood it that way.
I just know what the scripture says brother and how the Lord was gracious to open it to me, just a year or two ago I think it was. One problem with Catholicism and many churches is that they do everything by the letter, by rote formulas and rituals, by the flesh in other words, and not by the Spirit. We are to be led by the Spirit, and be His vessels and ambassadors, representatives, on earth. Jesus did nothing but what He saw the Father doing. We are likewise only to exercise the will of God in any situation. If He is forgiving someone their sins He can use us as His ambassador to extend that forgiveness and forgiveness can flow to someone like when Jesus felt virtue/power flow out of Him. If the Lord is disciplining someone in the church He may withhold forgiveness for a season. Forgiveness looses someone from their sin, while not forgiving keeps them bound in it. "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." And "Whatsoever sins you remit will be remitted and whatsoever sins you retain will be retained". These are both speaking of the same thing...forgiving or not forgiving....setting someone free from their bondage to sin or binding someone in their sin if they need that for a season so that they can learn the hard way so to speak. Not based on our own decision or judgment, like the Catholics officially and officiously excommunicate people who don't go by their rules, but in simplicity and by the leading of the Holy Spirit. I'm sure there is more to get hold of with this things, but that is understanding I have so far. I know it's quite amazing and a lot to take in, I felt the same and still do....the wonderful ways of the Lord, and how we are to be a spiritual people, people of that new way of the Spirit. Anyway, maybe seek the Lord about it, or keep it on a back burner for now....nobody has to accept anything that the Holy Spirit doesn't personally show them and convict them of......He is the one who leads us into all truth. This is new to me watchful . It is the first time I have heard this scripture used that way, so let me see if I am understanding you. If a person in sin came to us and asked us to absolve them of their sins, you believe we can do that? They could make confession to us, as easily as to God, and we could just do as Jesus did and declare they are forgiven? It is authority delegated by God to His church?
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 9, 2020 7:31:17 GMT -5
I know what Watchful is getting at here. Sometimes church leaders handle a conflict by saying “Look, just apologize, and we’ll move on.” Other times the leader might say “Apologies aren’t enough to account for your attitude problems.” There’s a time to be defrauded, and there’s a time to press the issue. The Holy Spirit knows which time it is. Pressing an issue too hard on babes can discourage them. Mountains out of molehills can suffocate fellowship. Shepherds should know how to loose and bind to get the best long-term results for a sheep.
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Post by watchful on Sept 9, 2020 8:42:21 GMT -5
I know what Watchful is getting at here. Sometimes church leaders handle a conflict by saying “Look, just apologize, and we’ll move on.” Other times the leader might say “Apologies aren’t enough to account for your attitude problems.” There’s a time to be defrauded, and there’s a time to press the issue. The Holy Spirit knows which time it is. Pressing an issue too hard on babes can discourage them. Mountains out of molehills can suffocate fellowship. Shepherds should know how to loose and bind to get the best long-term results for a sheep. You know sister, in truth I wasn't even thinking in terms of conflict situations, but that's a good point, I don't see why the Lord might not apply it in situations like that. Amen, the Lord in His wisdom knows what to do in every situation and He will lead accordingly, or He may impart wisdom to us. And how much we will be led by the Spirit in general depends on how much we have grown and are relying on Him at that point or in that moment, or whatever others factors there are....I believe it's just sort of 'organic' like that.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 9, 2020 8:43:22 GMT -5
Let me add a few more thoughts to this. Scripture gives us examples where God removed His wrath because a shepherd begged for mercy. Moses actually changed His mind at Sinai. Abraham's negotiation almost worked to save Sodom. We see in Jeremiah where the Lord told him to stop praying for the people because His wrath was no longer up for negotiation. Shepherds in their prayers can negotiate for God to take pity on others, while showing those sinners the goodness and severity of God. Not that humans can unilaterally forgive sin, but humans can choose how hard they fight for a wayward person. Paul might not have gotten saved if Stephen didn't stay God's hand that day. I doubt we're told that detail about Stephen just to show Stephen's piety. Stephen was fighting for Paul.
Shepherds, as God's representatives on earth, should be doing more than just teaching. Today we tend to think pastor=preacher but it's more than that. Shepherds should help sheep learn to understand the ways of God by demonstrating various times God is patient, angry, pleased, etc. Teaching the sheep when something requires a simple apology versus when there's a big problem. Paul kicked out the adulterous man from Corinth, but he didn't kick out the lawsuit people. Shepherds have to know how to make those choices, and this teaches the sheep what's important to God.
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Post by frienduff on Sept 9, 2020 8:45:51 GMT -5
Something I learned not that long ago....Jesus has given us authority to forgive sins too. We have taken up His mantle on earth and are here to extend His mercy and forgiveness to others. Jhn 20:22-23 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. I believe there may be instances where we are to withhold forgiveness though, in instances where discipline is needed, eg, if someone in the church is committing gross sins and refuses to change their ways. Giving them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh until they repent....is because of forgiveness being withheld until they repent. Understand this is to be led by the Holy Spirit though, not our flesh or what seemeth right to us. I think that is talking about sins done to us, not just sins in general. If it were within our power to do that, we would be in the same position as the Catholic Priests claim to be, and the practice of confession would be right. We could in theory grant forgiveness to the entire world. I get what you are saying about instances to withhold it, but what if a single Christian chose to absolve the entire world of their sins. Do you really believe we have such power, based on that verse? I have never understood it that way.
This was considering church correction . If one repented not we had the power to deliver them over , IF they do repent , we can pray to GOD that they be healed and the prayer of faith shall save the sick and IF he has comitted sins they shall be forgiven Him . This is simply about correction in the church . Cause its like you just said john . Its not like i can stand up and pray away the sins of the whole world and then its saved . Nope . Not even GOD himself does that . HE MADE the way in JESUS CHRIST ALONE and if folks reject HIM then there IS no forgivness .
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Post by watchful on Sept 9, 2020 8:59:55 GMT -5
I just know what the scripture says brother and how the Lord was gracious to open it to me, just a year or two ago I think it was. One problem with Catholicism and many churches is that they do everything by the letter, by rote formulas and rituals, by the flesh in other words, and not by the Spirit. We are to be led by the Spirit, and be His vessels and ambassadors, representatives, on earth. Jesus did nothing but what He saw the Father doing. We are likewise only to exercise the will of God in any situation. If He is forgiving someone their sins He can use us as His ambassador to extend that forgiveness and forgiveness can flow to someone like when Jesus felt virtue/power flow out of Him. If the Lord is disciplining someone in the church He may withhold forgiveness for a season. Forgiveness looses someone from their sin, while not forgiving keeps them bound in it. "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." And "Whatsoever sins you remit will be remitted and whatsoever sins you retain will be retained". These are both speaking of the same thing...forgiving or not forgiving....setting someone free from their bondage to sin or binding someone in their sin if they need that for a season so that they can learn the hard way so to speak. Not based on our own decision or judgment, like the Catholics officially and officiously excommunicate people who don't go by their rules, but in simplicity and by the leading of the Holy Spirit. I'm sure there is more to get hold of with this things, but that is understanding I have so far. I know it's quite amazing and a lot to take in, I felt the same and still do....the wonderful ways of the Lord, and how we are to be a spiritual people, people of that new way of the Spirit. Anyway, maybe seek the Lord about it, or keep it on a back burner for now....nobody has to accept anything that the Holy Spirit doesn't personally show them and convict them of......He is the one who leads us into all truth. This is new to me watchful . It is the first time I have heard this scripture used that way, so let me see if I am understanding you. If a person in sin came to us and asked us to absolve them of their sins, you believe we can do that? They could make confession to us, as easily as to God, and we could just do as Jesus did and declare they are forgiven? It is authority delegated by God to His church?
I don't blame you for being cautious. And also I don't want to go "beyond my faith" and understanding with this either, as Letters wisely has mentioned. Just that I believe we are to think of it as being one of many spiritual weapons in God's arsenal. (It might even be a spiritual gift, though I'm not sure.) But for sure used in the simplicity of Christ....Jesus just went around doing good, He didn't formalize anything, and notice He was always led by the Spirit, not formulas, and that is why we see Him healing in different ways, not according to a rote method. So you know how we are to confess our faults to one another, that is just in simplicity through Christian fellowship and friendship, in casual conversation, and then the Lord might just release forgiveness through us in that way of the Spirit, and it will help the person in their battle with whatever their fault is or whatever they are dealing with, or it could set them free from their bondage period, I just can't say for sure. We forgive the person instead of judging them, and the Lord may do that through anyone of us for one another. And He may apply it to lost souls, I believe. It's just nice to know the Lord has so many ways of dealing with things through the wonderful gift of His Holy Spirit that He has given to the church, His people. This is one that I never had seen before.
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Post by John on Sept 9, 2020 9:15:14 GMT -5
I separated this discussion into it's own thread. It is a different topic, and it is important enough to where a discussion should be allowed to continue.
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Post by John on Sept 9, 2020 9:17:21 GMT -5
Let me add a few more thoughts to this. Scripture gives us examples where God removed His wrath because a shepherd begged for mercy. Moses actually changed His mind at Sinai. Abraham's negotiation almost worked to save Sodom. We see in Jeremiah where the Lord told him to stop praying for the people because His wrath was no longer up for negotiation. Shepherds in their prayers can negotiate for God to take pity on others, while showing those sinners the goodness and severity of God. Not that humans can unilaterally forgive sin, but humans can choose how hard they fight for a wayward person. Paul might not have gotten saved if Stephen didn't stay God's hand that day. I doubt we're told that detail about Stephen just to show Stephen's piety. Stephen was fighting for Paul. Shepherds, as God's representatives on earth, should be doing more than just teaching. Today we tend to think pastor=preacher but it's more than that. Shepherds should help sheep learn to understand the ways of God by demonstrating various times God is patient, angry, pleased, etc. Teaching the sheep when something requires a simple apology versus when there's a big problem. Paul kicked out the adulterous man from Corinth, but he didn't kick out the lawsuit people. Shepherds have to know how to make those choices, and this teaches the sheep what's important to God. I never considered the story of what happened to Stephen from that angle, but there is a lot in that chapter in Acts. There is a very powerful sermon, a lesson in forgiveness and a vision that shows us the reality of the Holy Trinity. I would imagine there is more there than even those things if we look hard enough.
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Post by John on Sept 9, 2020 9:23:29 GMT -5
Let me add a few more thoughts to this. Scripture gives us examples where God removed His wrath because a shepherd begged for mercy. Moses actually changed His mind at Sinai. Abraham's negotiation almost worked to save Sodom. We see in Jeremiah where the Lord told him to stop praying for the people because His wrath was no longer up for negotiation. Shepherds in their prayers can negotiate for God to take pity on others, while showing those sinners the goodness and severity of God. Not that humans can unilaterally forgive sin, but humans can choose how hard they fight for a wayward person. Paul might not have gotten saved if Stephen didn't stay God's hand that day. I doubt we're told that detail about Stephen just to show Stephen's piety. Stephen was fighting for Paul. Shepherds, as God's representatives on earth, should be doing more than just teaching. Today we tend to think pastor=preacher but it's more than that. Shepherds should help sheep learn to understand the ways of God by demonstrating various times God is patient, angry, pleased, etc. Teaching the sheep when something requires a simple apology versus when there's a big problem. Paul kicked out the adulterous man from Corinth, but he didn't kick out the lawsuit people. Shepherds have to know how to make those choices, and this teaches the sheep what's important to God. That is a good point, the importance and power of standing in the gap. There is no question it can make a difference, and you did give great examples from scripture. We should be doing that.
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Post by John on Sept 9, 2020 10:03:41 GMT -5
Let me add a few more thoughts to this. Scripture gives us examples where God removed His wrath because a shepherd begged for mercy. Moses actually changed His mind at Sinai. Abraham's negotiation almost worked to save Sodom. We see in Jeremiah where the Lord told him to stop praying for the people because His wrath was no longer up for negotiation. Shepherds in their prayers can negotiate for God to take pity on others, while showing those sinners the goodness and severity of God. Not that humans can unilaterally forgive sin, but humans can choose how hard they fight for a wayward person. Paul might not have gotten saved if Stephen didn't stay God's hand that day. I doubt we're told that detail about Stephen just to show Stephen's piety. Stephen was fighting for Paul. Shepherds, as God's representatives on earth, should be doing more than just teaching. Today we tend to think pastor=preacher but it's more than that. Shepherds should help sheep learn to understand the ways of God by demonstrating various times God is patient, angry, pleased, etc. Teaching the sheep when something requires a simple apology versus when there's a big problem. Paul kicked out the adulterous man from Corinth, but he didn't kick out the lawsuit people. Shepherds have to know how to make those choices, and this teaches the sheep what's important to God. Your last paragraph made me think of Paul who said to follow him as he followed Christ. To do as you suggest, the local church shepherd must be faithfully following the Good Shepherd.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 9, 2020 10:15:40 GMT -5
I just want to say something about the Catholic thing. They take that one statement and run with it as an all-or-nothing maxim. I've always rejected that kind of logic with Scripture. You can't take one random sentence in the Bible and use it to build some all-or-nothing doctrine. Likewise, we can't ignore Bible verses because of some all-or-nothing mentality about it. The verse absolutely does not say Christians can snap their fingers to secure forgiveness for the wicked. The only way to get there is to play a "logical conclusion" game.
So if we want to discuss this, let's all agree up front that nobody here has a Catholic-style all-or-nothing mentality about it. We should be able to discuss this frankly without being handcuffed under suspicion.
My view of this verse involves two things:
1) Negotiating during intercession to spare the hide of a potential Paul
2) Acting like parents to help sheep mature. Loss of privileges, stern talking-to, conflict resolution, etc, in the church. Even if I don't get "kicked out" of a church, if the pastor makes it clear that no one thinks my attitude is cute, and no one is making excuses for me, this can grate on me until I wise up. Shepherds should have many tricks up their sleeve.
That's what I think we're discussing here. I don't want to get wrapped up in this for a meaningless argument about something I never said.
I'm assuming everyone here pretty much has the same view of this verse....?
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Post by John on Sept 9, 2020 10:30:01 GMT -5
I just want to say something about the Catholic thing. They take that one statement and run with it as an all-or-nothing maxim. I've always rejected that kind of logic with Scripture. You can't take one random sentence in the Bible and use it to build some all-or-nothing doctrine. Likewise, we can't ignore Bible verses because of some all-or-nothing mentality about it. The verse absolutely does not say Christians can snap their fingers to secure forgiveness for the wicked. The only way to get there is to play a "logical conclusion" game. So if we want to discuss this, let's all agree up front that nobody here has a Catholic-style all-or-nothing mentality about it. We should be able to discuss this frankly without being handcuffed under suspicion. My view of this verse involves two things: 1) Negotiating during intercession to spare the hide of a potential Paul 2) Acting like parents to help sheep mature. Loss of privileges, stern talking-to, conflict resolution, etc, in the church. Even if I don't get "kicked out" of a church, if the pastor makes it clear that no one thinks my attitude is cute, and no one is making excuses for me, this can grate on me until I wise up. Shepherds should have many tricks up their sleeve. That's what I think we're discussing here. I don't want to get wrapped up in this for a meaningless argument about something I never said. I'm assuming everyone here pretty much has the same view of this verse....? I get the impression that there is uncertainty among everyone as to the exact meaning, and that is why it is something I feel should be discussed further. I think there have been a lot of good thoughts given by different people, all that should be considered. I do not personally feel like I can declare someone's sins forgiven, but some might. I was hoping we could put our heads together with the Lord's help, and work through it.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 9, 2020 10:33:26 GMT -5
John you don’t have to agree with me to the detail. But generally speaking do you agree that my view is closer to the truth than the catholic view?
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