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Post by frienduff on Sept 10, 2020 9:44:39 GMT -5
There can be a gentle yet firm way to rebuke, so the message is clearly understood, but love is still prevailing. I have cringed at some preacher thundering searing condemnations from the pulpit, or roasting someone who made an error of judgement and is now crushed by harshness. Tough love is sometimes needed, but always with love and a desire to conduct our rebuke in such a way as to draw that person back to God. Save some through fear hating even the garment spotted by the flesh , save some with compassion making a difference . You right , but so is the serious grave mindset right as well . WE must simply rebuke as we are led to rebuke by the Spirit . Whether by compassion or fear , though , we must correct any brethren we see in error . Do as the Spirit bids . Correction , however , can never be over looked . We see it we move to correct it , however GOD leads us to do so . You be encouraged bethany . And i leave us with three simple words ...............PRAISE THE LORD .
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Post by Giller on Sept 10, 2020 10:45:55 GMT -5
Joh 20:19-23 (19) Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. (20) And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. (21) Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. (22) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: (23) Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. If we look at the context, it does not specify very much concerning this remitting and retaining. Things we do see, is that this was said on the first day of the week, and also Jesus mentions the words peace be unto you, 2 times, then he mentions about sending them. Then it seems that the Holy Spirit came upon them, and then it is said that whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained . So now I will compare scriptures side by side: Luk 17:3-4 (3) Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. (4) And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
| Joh 20:23 (23) Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. |
On the Luke side it mentions sins done against you, but on the John side it does not specify specific sins done against a person, but just sins period. Act 8:21-23 (21) Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. (22) Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. (23) For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. In the example that I have been giving, Peter did proclaim Simon, to be in the bond of iniquity, which proclaimed that he was still in his sins. And Peter even proclaimed that Simon's heart was not right with God. So when sins are retained, there no doubt can be, and will be, some type of correction in the mix. So really I do not think that we are that far a part, maybe just very slightly.
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Post by bethany on Sept 10, 2020 11:21:01 GMT -5
Maybe its a gender thing. Women are to rebuke gently but firmly, but preachers or those in authority over a flock (men) have the authorization to give a stern rebuke to pull someone up sharply. I still hold the thought that gentle firmness is the right way to start.
Most harsh rebukes are men talking to men who are in a position to know already, without a shadow of a doubt, that they are doing wrong.
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Post by Giller on Sept 10, 2020 11:35:25 GMT -5
I am not trying to go against what anyone is saying here, I am just trying to be true to the statement that is proclaimed in John 20:23, which of course says:
Joh 20:23 (23) Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Now we know it does not refer to men absolving other men of their sins such as is proclaimed in the Catholic church, only God can absolve us of our sins.
And also what we must realize is that, remitting sins, and retaining sins, are action words.
Concerning Stephen it says this:
Act 7:59-60 (59) And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. (60) And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Stephen was praying to God, to not lay this sin to their charge, which he was interceding for them.
And I believe that God did answer this prayer, at least in the person of Paul.
Thank God for Stephen's prayer, and care he showed towards these men.
And Stephen was asking God to not lay this sin to their charge.
But in the actual John quote, it says whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
These are actions words, of not asking, but of saying or proclaiming, someone sins to be forgiven, or to be retained, but of course it is a proclamation done in regards towards someone who has repented, or is still in their sins.
In the Peter example, it is not asking, but rather a declaration:
Act 8:23-24 (23) For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. (24) Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
Peter says thou art, thou art, thou art, it is a proclamation.
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Post by watchful on Sept 10, 2020 12:22:32 GMT -5
This may be controversial or difficult to grasp, but I will bring it up here because I can only share what I have to share. The Lord is jealous over His children. When He said touch not my anointed, He meant it. He can be provoked to bring judgment on people on behalf of His children. Sometimes He can also be provoked to harshly chastise a child. When those men stoned Steven, God would have been perfectly just to smite them. Again I will emphasize that we do not have the power to decide whether someone is forgiven. But, if God is provoked, especially on our behalf, he will take our feelings into consideration. He will listen to us plead for mercy if we say we’re not mad about it. There is a small dash of our counsel being involved in the decision. Barjesus was struck blind, but the fortune-telling girl was forgiven. Both reactions got the same results because the fear of God struck the people in both cases. One reaction was not more fruitful than the other. But one was bound and the other was loosed, despite the fact that they were in the same sin. Of course we can discuss how the young girl was an unwitting accomplice while Barjesus was intentional. But that’s the point. They were doing the exact same sin for different reasons. One was bound and the other was loosed. And she was loosed before she apologized. Paul took pity on that girl and loosed her from that bondage although he did not offer this to Barjesus. And again I am not saying that Paul chose to say she was forgiven. But Paul was the one who interacted with both of them. Both of them were attacking his ministry, and he handled them. But I don’t want to repeat myself on this or go in circles. I don’t know how much else to explain it. I guess people can receive it or not. I think I understand what you are saying Candance. We are to intercede on behalf of others for sure, and God hears our prayers. Just that there are other factors at play, such as the Lord respecting the will of the one being interceded for, as well as how and when the Lord in His wisdom will answer prayers or work in someone's life. All we can do is ask Him, and that sometimes includes getting hold of the horns of the altar too, as He sometimes leads our prayers in accordance with His will as well. With Barjesus and the servant girl....God is the only righteous judge and He dealt with each soul individually, and I assume led Paul in accordance with the counsel of His will and wisdom, knowledge and foreknowledge of each one, etc. He takes into account the prayers and intercession, but also figures into the equation all the other factors involved that only He knows.
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Post by watchful on Sept 10, 2020 12:37:36 GMT -5
This is just a thought, but I know in the case of Simon which is known as the sorcerer, maybe he needed to hear from Peter what Peter told him, so to bring strong conviction of some type, now what Simon did with what Peter told him, is another question. Now also there are times were people get saved, and they know they have been forgiven, but the devil comes to condemn them and bring doubt, maybe in some cases, through the anointing, some may need to here someone say to them they have been forgiven, which can bring comfort, and healing. Amen. The accuser accuses the brethren day and night before the throne. Some people have a terribly difficult time believing they are forgiven. Not everyone is running around using grace as a license for sin. For others, they have the opposite problem with trying to hold onto their confidence in their salvation in face of the devil accusing them....his accusations are a spiritual force and for some people it's a big part of what they are battling personally, and they need frequent reminders at times of all that Jesus has accomplished on the cross for those who believe in Him. That's why I believe the Body of Christ needs to have a good well rounded approach in general, so that everyone can glean what they themselves are in need of....or maybe better to say so that the Lord can minister to each one according to what they need.
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Post by Tabitha3319 on Sept 10, 2020 12:41:23 GMT -5
This is just a thought, but I know in the case of Simon which is known as the sorcerer, maybe he needed to hear from Peter what Peter told him, so to bring strong conviction of some type, now what Simon did with what Peter told him, is another question. Now also there are times were people get saved, and they know they have been forgiven, but the devil comes to condemn them and bring doubt, maybe in some cases, through the anointing, some may need to here someone say to them they have been forgiven, which can bring comfort, and healing. Amen. The accuser accuses the brethren day and night before the throne. Some people have a terribly difficult time believing they are forgiven. Not everyone is running around using grace as a license for sin. For others, they have the opposite problem with trying to hold onto their confidence in their salvation in face of the devil accusing them....his accusations are a spiritual force and for some people it's a big part of what they are battling personally, and they need frequent reminders at times of all that Jesus has accomplished on the cross for those who believe in Him. That's why I believe the Body of Christ needs to have a good well rounded approach in general, so that everyone can glean what they themselves are in need of. Trying to hold onto confidence is definitely me. I'm very thankful through Jesus, we can be redeemed and forgiven of all sins of we repent. If we have the broken and contrite heart that is an acceptable sacrifice .
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Post by Giller on Sept 10, 2020 12:42:43 GMT -5
This is just a thought, but I know in the case of Simon which is known as the sorcerer, maybe he needed to hear from Peter what Peter told him, so to bring strong conviction of some type, now what Simon did with what Peter told him, is another question. Now also there are times were people get saved, and they know they have been forgiven, but the devil comes to condemn them and bring doubt, maybe in some cases, through the anointing, some may need to here someone say to them they have been forgiven, which can bring comfort, and healing. When I talk about retaining and remitting, I am meaning it in a way, of what I wrote here.
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Post by John on Sept 10, 2020 13:04:49 GMT -5
This is just a thought, but I know in the case of Simon which is known as the sorcerer, maybe he needed to hear from Peter what Peter told him, so to bring strong conviction of some type, now what Simon did with what Peter told him, is another question. Now also there are times were people get saved, and they know they have been forgiven, but the devil comes to condemn them and bring doubt, maybe in some cases, through the anointing, some may need to here someone say to them they have been forgiven, which can bring comfort, and healing. Amen. The accuser accuses the brethren day and night before the throne. Some people have a terribly difficult time believing they are forgiven. Not everyone is running around using grace as a license for sin. For others, they have the opposite problem with trying to hold onto their confidence in their salvation in face of the devil accusing them....his accusations are a spiritual force and for some people it's a big part of what they are battling personally, and they need frequent reminders at times of all that Jesus has accomplished on the cross for those who believe in Him. That's why I believe the Body of Christ needs to have a good well rounded approach in general, so that everyone can glean what they themselves are in need of. Here is something many do not consider. God has many members in each congregation that He uses in different ways. I have always felt called to focus on judgement, righteous living, and repentance, above other things. Often times, an imbalance exists because those God uses to emphasize other matters do not step up, or they spend their time criticizing the lack of balance in someone else. To be balanced, a congregation must work together with all using their gifts.
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Post by watchful on Sept 10, 2020 13:33:23 GMT -5
Some scriptures that were eye opening to me: Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (ie, in the spirit?) We can see here below how binding and loosing has to do with forgiveness, at least in one sense: Mat 18:15-18Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
And then continuing in the same chapter picking up again on the same theme of forgiveness: Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt
Yes it has to do with both the correction and the forgivness . As paul also gave hymenaus and philetus over to satan , WHY , SO they WOULD LEARN NOT TO BLASPHEME GOD . It was not to just have them perish forever . But it was the working of the SPIRIT which leads to repentance . So it boils also down to what JESUS said . IF your brother sin against you , REBUKE HIM . catch the first step in correction . YOU rebuke them and show them their error . Then if he repents , You forgive and such a one is restored again . But since we on this subject , let me give us a huge reminder of what we DO not do . IF a brother or sister sins against God or the brethren . WE dont just sit and hug them and say all is well . WE rebuke them first to ensure they cease that error . There is this false kind of forgivness and restoration going on these days . IF brethren err , the folks say nothing and just hug them as all is well . And that is deadly . I agree.....and we dont' always have to be in rebuke mode, it could be just reproving or an entreaty, or even just a tactful remark in passing. There's a variety of responses to a variety of circumstances.
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Post by frienduff on Sept 10, 2020 13:44:10 GMT -5
Joh 20:19-23 (19) Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. (20) And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. (21) Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. (22) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: (23) Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. If we look at the context, it does not specify very much concerning this remitting and retaining. Things we do see, is that this was said on the first day of the week, and also Jesus mentions the words peace be unto you, 2 times, then he mentions about sending them. Then it seems that the Holy Spirit came upon them, and then it is said that whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained . So now I will compare scriptures side by side: Luk 17:3-4 (3) Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. (4) And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
| Joh 20:23 (23) Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. |
On the Luke side it mentions sins done against you, but on the John side it does not specify specific sins done against a person, but just sins period. Act 8:21-23 (21) Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. (22) Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. (23) For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. In the example that I have been giving, Peter did proclaim Simon, to be in the bond of iniquity, which proclaimed that he was still in his sins. And Peter even proclaimed that Simon's heart was not right with God. So when sins are retained, there no doubt can be, and will be, some type of correction in the mix. So really I do not think that we are that far a part, maybe just very slightly.
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Sept 10, 2020 21:56:04 GMT -5
I have the gift of emotional healing, and alongside that the gift of knowing what is secretly troubling or hindering people, and I pick up their inner emotions. I can also cut through a problem to find the nub of it, the sore spot in their minds and hearts, which is often not the obvious one they think is the problem in need of healing. It's very specific, and is not from my own reasoning, thought or knowledge. I don't look for people in need of emotional and mental healing, they seem to find me and open up to me, a stranger. I am not sure where that fits in Cletus list. thats a word of knowledge. something you have no way of knowing but by Gods Spirit you do.
also I dont care what your denomination is. i dont have a denomination really. look at my avatar to the left... thats what i chase and point to.
for me when i had hands laid on me and the gifts began to flow it was a special mile mark of my life. it was the time for me... for the first time i could kick the devil in the teeth.
i am always curious if others i meet that are believers have been baptized in The Holy Spirit. no one is out to accuse you. just trying to get to know you.
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Post by John on Oct 5, 2020 8:49:28 GMT -5
Honestly I do believe there can be some teamwork between us and God (at times) on whether He forgets His wrath on someone. We can’t make Him forgive anyone, but we can wear Him down. And sometimes our own selves saying “I’m not even mad about it” can sway Him. I’ve seen it happen in prayer. More than once God has allowed me to wrestle Him to wear Him down to withhold His wrath. I don’t understand this mystery but I know it’s true. This comment may hold the key to the verse. Even in a court of law, the judge is often influenced on how much mercy he will give by the reaction of the victim. If the victim of a crime forgives the person that wronged them, and asks for leniency, the Judge will often listen to them and consider it. There have been instances in scripture, as you pointed out, where the victim of something asked for mercy or that the sin not even be laid to someone's charge.
On the other hand, we have been in Revelation, and read about where victims who were killed for their testimony are asking God for justice, and God is giving it to those responsible. That certainly would go a long way to explaining how remitting and retaining sins may work.
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