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Post by John on Sept 9, 2020 10:40:29 GMT -5
John you don’t have to agree with me to the detail. But generally speaking do you agree that my view is closer to the truth than the catholic view? Absolutely! I am not sure about others. I could also see Frienduff's point of view.
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Post by Giller on Sept 9, 2020 11:15:35 GMT -5
This is one scripture that I ponder upon every now and again, and it seems that I have to go back to it now and again.
I will share a bit of thoughts on it.
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Post by Giller on Sept 9, 2020 11:56:27 GMT -5
Concerning scriptures that talk about binding and loosing (Matthew 18:18 etc.), it seems to have a double meaning, which can involve prayer or the prayer of agreement (Matthew 18:19), and it can involve correction (Matthew 18:15-17), and of course one example of someone being loosed is found in our next scripture:
Luk 13:12 (12) And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
And then there is this scripture:
Luk 17:3-4 (3) Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. (4) And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
This scripture specifically mentions a brother sinning against another brother.
But then we get to our next scripture:
Joh 20:22-23 (22) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: (23) Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Now concerning the Holy Ghost part, here it shows Jesus breathing on them, and saying unto them to receive the Holy Ghost, which some say this was a prelude to when they would be filled with the Holy Ghost at the day of Pentecost.
And now we get to our saying, in our saying it says that whose sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them, and whose sins ye retain they are retained.
It does not specifically specify what kind of sins, but just rather sins period.
And it seems to be some type of declaration.
Also it seems that here the Spirit was poured upon them, and this declaration worked in conjunction with the flow of the Spirit somehow.
Now I do not bear witness at all to the way the Catholics use this saying, for only God can absolve us of sins.
Forgiveness of sins, is only through the blood of the Lamb, which of course true repentance must come about.
And there seems to be some type of authority in this saying.
Now I know that you can be preaching the gospel, and someone can either receive it, or reject it, and if they reject it, you can declare them still in their sins, and if they receive it, you can declare to them that they have been forgiven by Jesus.
This saying has nothing to do with absolution of sins, but rather a declaration of someone declared either forgiven or not, depending on the choice they have done.
Which is in conjunction with the leading of the Spirit of course.
An example of this, is found in our next scripture:
Act 8:21-23 (21) Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. (22) Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. (23) For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
Peter declared this Simon guy, to be in the bond of iniquity.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 9, 2020 12:05:11 GMT -5
It’s easy for us to overlook the significance of the Holy Spirit. When we have the Holy Spirit, we don’t simply have an ‘anointing’ or ‘power’ or whatnot. We have God upon us. He’s God too. He can move/speak through us to convey to a person whether they’re forgiven or not. If Paul told me to my face that my sins were not remitted, I’d be scared. You better believe I’d be asking him what must I do.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 9, 2020 12:19:26 GMT -5
Honestly I do believe there can be some teamwork between us and God (at times) on whether He forgets His wrath on someone. We can’t make Him forgive anyone, but we can wear Him down. And sometimes our own selves saying “I’m not even mad about it” can sway Him. I’ve seen it happen in prayer. More than once God has allowed me to wrestle Him to wear Him down to withhold His wrath. I don’t understand this mystery but I know it’s true.
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Post by watchful on Sept 9, 2020 13:14:02 GMT -5
I think that is talking about sins done to us, not just sins in general. If it were within our power to do that, we would be in the same position as the Catholic Priests claim to be, and the practice of confession would be right. We could in theory grant forgiveness to the entire world. I get what you are saying about instances to withhold it, but what if a single Christian chose to absolve the entire world of their sins. Do you really believe we have such power, based on that verse? I have never understood it that way.
This was considering church correction . If one repented not we had the power to deliver them over , IF they do repent , we can pray to GOD that they be healed and the prayer of faith shall save the sick and IF he has comitted sins they shall be forgiven Him . This is simply about correction in the church . Cause its like you just said john . Its not like i can stand up and pray away the sins of the whole world and then its saved . Nope . Not even GOD himself does that . HE MADE the way in JESUS CHRIST ALONE and if folks reject HIM then there IS no forgivness . Amen, I agree.....except I believe its not exclusive to those type of situations....since the Spirit blows where it listeth. And there are different administrations and operations of the same thing. Releasing forgiveness ministers to the person like healing or deliverance or a prophetic word might, and though I don't understand it very well, I believe it unbinds/loosens them from the sin and they are freed to obey and serve the Lord instead of being stuck in the sin.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Sept 9, 2020 13:17:35 GMT -5
while there are compelling points both ways this topic must be approached with caution unto conclusion as its the antiChrists place to appear to be as God.
due to the fact there is not a whole bunch of context clues to go on concerning this verse in John i think it would be wise to try to put this on a timeline and get a parallel/harmony with the other gospels. at least as close as possible. John is the one Gospel that has some things not found in the other gospels and leaves some things out found in the other three. this may produce more context.
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Post by watchful on Sept 9, 2020 13:19:14 GMT -5
Let me add a few more thoughts to this. Scripture gives us examples where God removed His wrath because a shepherd begged for mercy. Moses actually changed His mind at Sinai. Abraham's negotiation almost worked to save Sodom. We see in Jeremiah where the Lord told him to stop praying for the people because His wrath was no longer up for negotiation. Shepherds in their prayers can negotiate for God to take pity on others, while showing those sinners the goodness and severity of God. Not that humans can unilaterally forgive sin, but humans can choose how hard they fight for a wayward person. Paul might not have gotten saved if Stephen didn't stay God's hand that day. I doubt we're told that detail about Stephen just to show Stephen's piety. Stephen was fighting for Paul. Shepherds, as God's representatives on earth, should be doing more than just teaching. Today we tend to think pastor=preacher but it's more than that. Shepherds should help sheep learn to understand the ways of God by demonstrating various times God is patient, angry, pleased, etc. Teaching the sheep when something requires a simple apology versus when there's a big problem. Paul kicked out the adulterous man from Corinth, but he didn't kick out the lawsuit people. Shepherds have to know how to make those choices, and this teaches the sheep what's important to God. That is a good point, the importance and power of standing in the gap. There is no question it can make a difference, and you did give great examples from scripture. We should be doing that.Where you said shepherds "know how to make those choices"......apart from simple practical matters, I think in terms of it being more about how the Holy Spirit leads and what He wants to do in any individual circumstance.
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Post by watchful on Sept 9, 2020 13:34:07 GMT -5
I just want to say something about the Catholic thing. They take that one statement and run with it as an all-or-nothing maxim. I've always rejected that kind of logic with Scripture. You can't take one random sentence in the Bible and use it to build some all-or-nothing doctrine. Likewise, we can't ignore Bible verses because of some all-or-nothing mentality about it. The verse absolutely does not say Christians can snap their fingers to secure forgiveness for the wicked. The only way to get there is to play a "logical conclusion" game. So if we want to discuss this, let's all agree up front that nobody here has a Catholic-style all-or-nothing mentality about it. We should be able to discuss this frankly without being handcuffed under suspicion. My view of this verse involves two things: 1) Negotiating during intercession to spare the hide of a potential Paul 2) Acting like parents to help sheep mature. Loss of privileges, stern talking-to, conflict resolution, etc, in the church. Even if I don't get "kicked out" of a church, if the pastor makes it clear that no one thinks my attitude is cute, and no one is making excuses for me, this can grate on me until I wise up. Shepherds should have many tricks up their sleeve. That's what I think we're discussing here. I don't want to get wrapped up in this for a meaningless argument about something I never said. I'm assuming everyone here pretty much has the same view of this verse....? I get the impression that there is uncertainty among everyone as to the exact meaning, and that is why it is something I feel should be discussed further. I think there have been a lot of good thoughts given by different people, all that should be considered. I do not personally feel like I can declare someone's sins forgiven, but some might. I was hoping we could put our heads together with the Lord's help, and work through it.
I think it's not always a matter of "us" declaring or doing anything really, it's a matter of what the Holy Spirit is doing...if He releases forgiveness through someone, it is an action in the spirit that takes place, rather than an action or words spoken in the natural realm. It's like remember Jesus was just walking along and felt virtue flow from Him...He really didn't need to do or say anything in that instance, the woman was just healed. If the Lord wants to do something He will do it and all we need to do is be His vessel and go along for the ride, and give Him praise afterwards. Anyway, I think I will just leave it there for my part, or else I'll get myself tied in knots....it's just something to be aware of and maybe the Lord will give more understanding down the road.
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Post by John on Sept 9, 2020 13:44:11 GMT -5
I get the impression that there is uncertainty among everyone as to the exact meaning, and that is why it is something I feel should be discussed further. I think there have been a lot of good thoughts given by different people, all that should be considered. I do not personally feel like I can declare someone's sins forgiven, but some might. I was hoping we could put our heads together with the Lord's help, and work through it.
I think it's not always a matter of "us" declaring or doing anything really, it's a matter of what the Holy Spirit is doing...if He releases forgiveness through someone, it is an action in the spirit that takes place, rather than an action or words spoken in the natural realm. It's like remember Jesus was just walking along and felt virtue flow from Him...He really didn't need to do or say anything in that instance, the woman was just healed. If the Lord wants to do something He will do it and all we need to do is be His vessel and go along for the ride, and give Him praise afterwards. Anyway, I think I will just leave it there for my part, or else I'll get myself tied in knots....it's just something to be aware of and maybe the Lord will give more understanding down the road. watchful , I am still considering all of this, but what you said makes a lot of sense.
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Post by watchful on Sept 9, 2020 13:55:16 GMT -5
while there are compelling points both ways this topic must be approached with caution unto conclusion as its the antiChrists place to appear to be as God. due to the fact there is not a whole bunch of context clues to go on concerning this verse in John i think it would be wise to try to put this on a timeline and get a parallel/harmony with the other gospels. at least as close as possible. John is the one Gospel that has some things not found in the other gospels and leaves some things out found in the other three. this may produce more context. Yes, we need to have hold of this as well as all things with the mind of Christ. The difference between flesh and spirit is like a fine thin line, but with a world of difference, one is antichrist and the other is of Christ. I have this growing feeling that the days of fancy ministers with fancy ways wearing fancy robes in fancy churches is at an end, as far as God is concerned. .....the Lord is looking for Christians to just be His servants in the day to day and take His gospel message (with signs following) to the highways and byways wherever we happen to be, in the simplicity of Christ. Much like He Himself was doing. Not that we all are preachers or what-have-you, but we all are witnesses and the Lord will use each one according to their giftings. I mean He has always wanted that, pf course, but just that this is going to manifest more and more, so that the wedding will be furnished with guests.
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Post by frienduff on Sept 9, 2020 14:39:37 GMT -5
John you don’t have to agree with me to the detail. But generally speaking do you agree that my view is closer to the truth than the catholic view? Absolutely! I am not sure about others. I could also see Frienduff's point of view. Sit down . Do my views and the views of sister candance or any other , disagree . THEN KNOW THIS . ONLY one is the right view . Whether it be I , candance or another . You better sit down and refresh in scripture . cause we cant alll be right . All will do as they must do . But i must cling to the original pattern . the simpicity of that . Time as we know it , is coming to a close . Though i have seen and though i have had faults , what i taught was not a fault . Soon enough folks will choose their ways . But i must continue in the only way that set me free . JESUS , GOD and the simpicity of scriptures .
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Post by frienduff on Sept 9, 2020 14:44:40 GMT -5
AND REST assured . i have seen that not all follow JUST , as in ONLY the bible . WHY is it that some can in time heed emotions rather than the orginal pattern . many follow minds of men and they own mind . but we must follow the pattern set to us in the bible . I double dare any to return to scripture , feast on just that . Then come and show me my error in the approach towards sin and error that i give . Show me my error in speaking against some kind of end time awakening , versus what i say , That there is only a falling away . My time is running its course . At least i know this . no matter how misunderstood i was , I CLUNG TO THE BIBLE , not men and thoughts
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Post by frienduff on Sept 9, 2020 14:45:51 GMT -5
Ps . when i say show me my error . DO me and yourselves a favor . DO IT WITH SCIPTURE . OR DONT waste your breath .
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Post by John on Sept 9, 2020 14:47:51 GMT -5
Absolutely! I am not sure about others. I could also see Frienduff's point of view. Sit down . Do my views and the views of sister candance or any other , disagree . THEN KNOW THIS . ONLY one is the right view . Whether it be I , candance or another . You better sit down and refresh in scripture . cause we cant alll be right . All will do as they must do . But i must cling to the original pattern . the simpicity of that . Time as we know it , is coming to a close . Though i have seen and though i have had faults , what i taught was not a fault . Soon enough folks will choose their ways . But i must continue in the only way that set me free . JESUS , GOD and the simpicity of scriptures . It is not a question of knowing what it says, but of understanding it. This is not an easily understood verse, as is obvious by all the different opinions. Giller said he has wrestled with it for years. I am not 100 percent sure of the meaning, thus we discuss it.
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