PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 25, 2018 9:39:23 GMT -5
So now the question remains, if Paul could not speak in this angelic language, then can men actually speak in an angelic language? I know some will use the 1 Corinthians 13 scripture, of speaking in tongues of men and of angels, to point that men can, and I will get into that in a bit, which I will show a certain aspect to this. But if you put this verse to the side for now, is there another verse that shows that men can speak in the tongues of angels? Which in Paul's case, in the third heaven verse, it appears that Paul could not? The Bible doesn’t tell us one way or the other. Paul’s comment in 1 Cor 13 presents it as plausible but uncertain. Therefore I would say it is not a normal practice we should expect because it is generally hidden from us, but there may be exceptional conditions when God would allow it. Plausible. That’s what Paul conveys. As a tie-breaker, I would appeal to the story in Judges when God opened a donkey’s mouth to speak to Balaam. God can allow a mouth to speak unnatural languages if He wants to. It is generally, by nature, not for donkeys to talk to us, and we shouldn’t expect them to, but it happened at least once. This is something in the realm of plausibilty. That’s the category where I would place humans speaking an angel tongue. Also let’s keep in mind about 1 Cor 13, Paul listed actions that were extravagant. Giving your body to be burned is extreme. Giving all of your goods is beyond the norm. Having all knowledge and understanding all mysteries is intense. This is a picture of the absolute pinnacle of human spirituality. If you’re capable of doing all of that, perhaps an angel tongue would be within your grasp. Paul went to on to say “we know in part and we prophesy in part” which included himself in that list, so he didn’t pretend that he literally had all knowledge. Therefore, again, it all seems to point to the same conclusion: a human may feasibly reach that pinnacle, but Paul didn’t know of anyone who did.
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Post by Giller on Dec 25, 2018 10:18:05 GMT -5
Not having any love is a present state statement, and not a whole life statement, otherwise Paul would have had no love at all, yet he includes himself in this list, for he says though I bestow all my goods (present tense), and have no love (present tense). I just wanted to give context to this. And of course also it does not mean that Paul at this present time was not walking in the love of God either, for it says though I do such and such, and have no love, which it is saying that if we do such and such, but there is no love with it, I am nothing, it profiteth me nothing etc. I understand the distinction you’re making here. But let me add a wrinkle to the fabric. When you survey all the qualities of love that Paul goes on to list, it’s a much bigger scope than the operation of a gift. He does in fact describe a lifestyle of suffering long, bearing all things, etc. If prophecy will ultimately fail but love will not, then this love is bigger than prophecy. And anyway, I can’t imagine how you could produce this love during the operation of a gift if you were not already living it. Oh there is no doubt about that, that love is bigger than prophecy, and has a lot of qualities to it, such as long-suffering and so on. Yet also it does say that faith worketh by love.
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Post by Giller on Dec 25, 2018 10:33:05 GMT -5
So now the question remains, if Paul could not speak in this angelic language, then can men actually speak in an angelic language? I know some will use the 1 Corinthians 13 scripture, of speaking in tongues of men and of angels, to point that men can, and I will get into that in a bit, which I will show a certain aspect to this. But if you put this verse to the side for now, is there another verse that shows that men can speak in the tongues of angels? Which in Paul's case, in the third heaven verse, it appears that Paul could not? The Bible doesn’t tell us one way or the other. Paul’s comment in 1 Cor 13 presents it as plausible but uncertain. Therefore I would say it is not a normal practice we should expect because it is generally hidden from us, but there may be exceptional conditions when God would allow it. Plausible. That’s what Paul conveys. As a tie-breaker, I would appeal to the story in Judges when God opened a donkey’s mouth to speak to Balaam. God can allow a mouth to speak unnatural languages if He wants to. It is generally, by nature, not for donkeys to talk to us, and we shouldn’t expect them to, but it happened at least once. This is something in the realm of plausibilty. That’s the category where I would place humans speaking an angel tongue. Also let’s keep in mind about 1 Cor 13, Paul listed actions that were extravagant. Giving your body to be burned is extreme. Giving all of your goods is beyond the norm. Having all knowledge and understanding all mysteries is intense. This is a picture of the absolute pinnacle of human spirituality. If you’re capable of doing all of that, perhaps an angel tongue would be within your grasp. Paul went to on to say “we know in part and we prophesy in part” which included himself in that list, so he didn’t pretend that he literally had all knowledge. Therefore, again, it all seems to point to the same conclusion: a human may feasibly reach that pinnacle, but Paul didn’t know of anyone who did. I like the way you described the different things, such as the actions listed, were extravagant actions, which it appears for the most part they were, that is with the exception of speaking in the tongues of men, and prophecy. Ya that is interesting about the donkey, which is not normal for the donkey to speak in a human language. The realm of some kind of possibility may be there with the giving of this example, but another interesting thing I find that you said, is this: "a human may feasibly reach that pinnacle, but Paul didn’t know of anyone who did." And concerning what it says in Corinthians concerning this:"And though I ...understand all mysteries, and all knowledge;...and have not charity, I am nothing" , I do not know of any one who understands all mysteries, and all knowledge. But it seems to be saying that even if you did, that does not mean that at the moment you are walking under the love of God. It is all present tense statements, and God in another scripture says to continue in his love, and if we do not bear fruit we shall be cut off.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 25, 2018 11:05:08 GMT -5
But it seems to be saying that even if you did, that does not mean that at the moment you are walking under the love of God. It is all present tense statements, and God in another scripture says to continue in his love, and if we do not bear fruit we shall be cut off. I’m not quite understanding why you’re stuck here. This isn’t an either-or proposition where he must be referring to a general lifestyle or a specific action. The way you really are in life is the way you will be when you operate a gift.
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Post by John on Dec 25, 2018 11:05:38 GMT -5
When a person receives the Baptism in the Holy Ghost, we see a clear pattern in Acts that the initial evidence is speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance. We have no idea if those tongues are languages known to the people in this world or if they are angelic languages. We do not understand what we are saying. When you speak in tongues, do you recognize the language? How do you know it is not an angelic language? It may be far more common that people realize.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 25, 2018 11:18:13 GMT -5
When a person receives the Baptism in the Holy Ghost, we see a clear pattern in Acts that the initial evidence is speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance. We have no idea if those tongues are languages known to the people in this world or if they are angelic languages. We do not understand what we are saying. When you speak in tongues, do you recognize the language? How do you know it is not an angelic language? It may be far more common that people realize.
In defense of Giller on this point, the contention here is whether every heavenly/spiritual language is spoken by angels. Do angels have their own language system separate from the Holy Spirit?
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Post by frienduff on Dec 25, 2018 11:19:57 GMT -5
Not having any love is a present state statement, and not a whole life statement, otherwise Paul would have had no love at all, yet he includes himself in this list, for he says though I bestow all my goods (present tense), and have no love (present tense). I just wanted to give context to this. And of course also it does not mean that Paul at this present time was not walking in the love of God either, for it says though I do such and such, and have no love, which it is saying that if we do such and such, but there is no love with it, I am nothing, it profiteth me nothing etc. I understand the distinction you’re making here. But let me add a wrinkle to the fabric. When you survey all the qualities of love that Paul goes on to list, it’s a much bigger scope than the operation of a gift. He does in fact describe a lifestyle of suffering long, bearing all things, etc. If prophecy will ultimately fail but love will not, then this love is bigger than prophecy. And anyway, I can’t imagine how you could produce this love during the operation of a gift if you were not already living it. Allow me to throw the fabric softner of truth on that wrinkle . Cause this will be smooth . JESUS IS LORD and let all that draws breath praise THE LORD .
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Post by frienduff on Dec 25, 2018 11:22:48 GMT -5
When a person receives the Baptism in the Holy Ghost, we see a clear pattern in Acts that the initial evidence is speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance. We have no idea if those tongues are languages known to the people in this world or if they are angelic languages. We do not understand what we are saying. When you speak in tongues, do you recognize the language? How do you know it is not an angelic language? It may be far more common that people realize.
That's the beauty of it . Its a SPIRITUAL LANGUAGE , yet to those who are to hear and receive the message , it can sound out in any language of any hearer . The language of tongues is not earthen . It is not from man , but GOD . OH sound out praises to the LORD, butero , sound out praises to the LORD .
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Post by frienduff on Dec 25, 2018 11:29:12 GMT -5
Honestly , I think paul is just making the point , that if one has not charity nothing profits them . Even if THEY Could speak in tongues or even if they did give their body to be burned . The summation of the entire chapter is , if one has not charity , it wont profit them at all, they do not know God . Now , on that note , LET all that has breath praise the LORD and let all just grow in the grace of the LORD . Hands up , my friends , hands up and praise the Lord . For I have come to the full blown conclusion that their is no such thing as too much praise to the LORD . Their is only one kind of praise to the LORD that HE will not hear . When we praise an image of GOD that serves the lusts and desires of the inquity of mans heart . That praise and that sacrifice will not be heard . So let all continue to examine their walk and just leap up and praise the Lord .
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Post by Giller on Dec 25, 2018 17:21:29 GMT -5
This is a scripture I have always found interesting:
1Pe 1:12 (12) Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
I am not implying nothing specific here, just mentioning it, because it is a very interesting scripture, something to think upon.
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Post by Giller on Dec 25, 2018 17:34:56 GMT -5
Just want to mention a few things about angels:
2Pe 2:10-11 (10) But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. (11) Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
Of course angels are greater in power and might than men.
Heb 2:9 (9) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Of course Jesus came as a man, not as an angel.
Heb 2:16 (16) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Of course this is talking about Jesus not taking upon him the nature of angels.
Jesus came as a man, a perfect man without a sin nature, but he could feel as a man the feelings we feel and so forth.
And it seems to be mentioning how angels have their own nature.
Very interesting I find.
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Post by frienduff on Dec 25, 2018 18:18:44 GMT -5
Just want to mention a few things about angels: 2Pe 2:10-11 (10) But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. (11) Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. Of course angels are greater in power and might than men. Heb 2:9 (9) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. Of course Jesus came as a man, not as an angel. Heb 2:16 (16) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Of course this is talking about Jesus not taking upon him the nature of angels. Jesus came as a man, a perfect man without a sin nature, but he could feel as a man the feelings we feel and so forth. And it seems to be mentioning how angels have their own nature. Very interesting I find.
here I just wanted to remind you of this too. straight from satan it is . yall we gotta steer clear of this unity move .
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Post by Giller on Dec 25, 2018 19:48:20 GMT -5
Just want to mention a few things about angels: 2Pe 2:10-11 (10) But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. (11) Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. Of course angels are greater in power and might than men. Heb 2:9 (9) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. Of course Jesus came as a man, not as an angel. Heb 2:16 (16) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Of course this is talking about Jesus not taking upon him the nature of angels. Jesus came as a man, a perfect man without a sin nature, but he could feel as a man the feelings we feel and so forth. And it seems to be mentioning how angels have their own nature. Very interesting I find.
here I just wanted to remind you of this too. straight from satan it is . yall we gotta steer clear of this unity move .
I am not surprised that hillsong is going that way, but I did not know that they were gone that far, yes we need to warn Frienduff, God bless.
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Post by Giller on Dec 25, 2018 20:24:05 GMT -5
Heb 2:16
(16) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
It seems to me that, the nature of angels is at an elevated state as compared to man.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Dec 25, 2018 21:43:51 GMT -5
Heb 2:16 (16) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. It seems to me that, the nature of angels is at an elevated state as compared to man. it is. God showed me a scripture once about how to speak to angels, well more like how not to because they can rip you into pieces. with in one week I had a conversation with an angel. i have spoken of some of it on this forum.
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