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Post by Giller on Sept 3, 2019 7:20:43 GMT -5
The typical preacher today will say that under the New Covenant, the temple has been replaced by the local church. The priests are replaced by the Pastor. As such, whatever church you are a member of is your storehouse. They will say that you owe God 10 percent of whatever you make, and that you have to bring it to your local church or you are robbing God and cursed with a curse. They further claim that if you pay your tithes to the local church, God will open the windows of heaven and pour you out a blessing that there shall not be room enough to receive it. This is primarily what makes me question the modern tithe doctrine. We must accept fuzzy logic that pastors became Levites, church buildings replaced the temple, and seasonal tithe of crops became weekly tithe of all income. None of this is in Scripture. It may seem intuitive on the surface, but it was invented out of thin air. I have more respect for teachers who at least use the Abraham thing. But even then, when Hebrews says Abraham tithed to one greater than Levi, there’s a conspicuous absence of any call to continue the tradition. I do not see the tithe either as coming over to the New Covenant, and concerning Abraham tithing to Melchizedek, it was a tenth of his spoils gotten in war that he gave, and not a tenth of what he had. Heb 7:4 (4) Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
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Post by John on Sept 3, 2019 7:28:56 GMT -5
This is primarily what makes me question the modern tithe doctrine. We must accept fuzzy logic that pastors became Levites, church buildings replaced the temple, and seasonal tithe of crops became weekly tithe of all income. None of this is in Scripture. It may seem intuitive on the surface, but it was invented out of thin air. I have more respect for teachers who at least use the Abraham thing. But even then, when Hebrews says Abraham tithed to one greater than Levi, there’s a conspicuous absence of any call to continue the tradition. I do not see the tithe either as coming over to the New Covenant, and concerning Abraham tithing to Melchizedek, it was a tenth of his spoils gotten in war that he gave, and not a tenth of what he had. Heb 7:4 (4) Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. It shows he had a conscience to tithe, and if he tithed here, it stands to reason he did at other times. This was not to support the Levitical priesthood.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 3, 2019 8:11:51 GMT -5
I do not see the tithe either as coming over to the New Covenant, and concerning Abraham tithing to Melchizedek, it was a tenth of his spoils gotten in war that he gave, and not a tenth of what he had. Heb 7:4 (4) Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. It shows he had a conscience to tithe, and if he tithed here, it stands to reason he did at other times. This was not to support the Levitical priesthood. It was common in the OT for spoils of war to be shared among the soldiers. Remember David’s controversy of giving a share to his men who stayed behind. Abraham didn’t keep the other 90% for himself. He was in the process of giving out portions, and he gave a 1/10 portion to Melchesedek. We never see Abraham tithe money, and Hebrews doesn’t say he tithed anything else. Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion. — Genesis 14:24
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 3, 2019 8:23:55 GMT -5
The Levite tithe was a personal covenant between Jacob/Israel and God.
And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Lord be my God: And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee. — Genesis 28:20-22
We don’t know if he got this idea from Abraham or what. But Jacob initiated this covenant. So in order to fulfill it, the Levite tribe was given to the Lord, and a tenth of all food/raiment was given to the Lord in perpetuity. Hebrews tells us this covenant has been fulfilled. When Malachi said Israel robbed God, it’s because they broke this promise from Jacob. God wasn’t confiscating 10% of Israel’s goods under threat of a curse; He had been promised those goods by Jacob himself. That’s why it was robbery.
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Post by John on Sept 3, 2019 8:32:33 GMT -5
It shows he had a conscience to tithe, and if he tithed here, it stands to reason he did at other times. This was not to support the Levitical priesthood. It was common in the OT for spoils of war to be shared among the soldiers. Remember David’s controversy of giving a share to his men who stayed behind. Abraham didn’t keep the other 90% for himself. He was in the process of giving out portions, and he gave a 1/10 portion to Melchesedek. We never see Abraham tithe money, and Hebrews doesn’t say he tithed anything else. Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion. — Genesis 14:24 But why did Abraham give a tithe? Why that amount? It doesn't say that the spoils of war was food, and in all likelihood, it was not. It doesn't specifically say he tithed before, but why do it now if there wasn't some significance to the amount?
And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand, and he gave him TITHES of all.
It doesn't say 10 percent. It specifically says tithes, suggesting there was something special about the tithe. This is not simply sharing the spoils of war. There is a reason this is mentioned this way in the Bible. I would also point out that there is far more reason to think tithing is valid today than observing the Sunday Sabbath. There is not a single scripture that ever says that the first day of the week should be set aside as a day of rest, yet many believe it is based on nothing more than the early church choosing to meet on that day, and a reference to John being in the Spirit on the Lord's Day. I know you are not saying that Candance, but I am saying that many do.
I was also thinking about how much today's prosperity teachers are like the moneychangers in Jesus' day. The people were still required to tithe, even though they were having to deal with less than honest moneychangers in the temple, where they had to purchase doves to sacrifice. No doubt, the moneychangers got more than they were worth. How much different is that from the crooked Pastors that misuse the tithe money that comes into their church?
I am still wanting to do a more thorough search into all the references to tithing. I think that might be helpful, but based on what I have seen so far, it appears to me that tithing does pre-date the law of Moses. At the time, there was no temple or storehouse, so Abraham gave his tithes to Melchizedek. Under the law, the tithe went to the temple. Under the New Covenant, we don't have the temple, but we can still tithe to God. We are never told it must be to a single congregation, but there is nothing to stop anyone from setting aside 10 percent to give to God. If a person sees that their church is misusing the tithe, they should be free to give some or all of it elsewhere, or go find a better church. That is my opinion of what I have seen thus far. There were moneychangers in the temple, so clearly people that didn't have animals to sacrifice brought money instead, but just had someone there to exchange it for an animal. It is like taking my American money to Canada, and going to a money exchanger who gives me it's value in Canadian dollars. You exchange it for what is needed.
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Post by John on Sept 3, 2019 8:37:59 GMT -5
The Levite tithe was a personal covenant between Jacob/Israel and God. And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Lord be my God: And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee. — Genesis 28:20-22We don’t know if he got this idea from Abraham or what. But Jacob initiated this covenant. So in order to fulfill it, the Levite tribe was given to the Lord, and a tenth of all food/raiment was given to the Lord in perpetuity. Hebrews tells us this covenant has been fulfilled. When Malachi said Israel robbed God, it’s because they broke this promise from Jacob. God wasn’t confiscating 10% of Israel’s goods under threat of a curse; He had been promised those goods by Jacob Himself. That’s why it was robbery. That is possibly the reason for why the tithe came to be, but people that didn't make that agreement personally, were still required to give 10 percent to God under threat of curse. It was going to come on them if they didn't give 10 percent wasn't it? It is like the sin curse we have to deal with. We didn't eat the forbidden fruit, yet we all come under the curses from Adam and Eve's transgression. This is another example of tithing before the law, and it also gives more evidence that the principal of tithing existed all along. It is very likely that Jacob was only promising to do what he knew was right from the beginning if God met his needs.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 3, 2019 8:44:09 GMT -5
The word tithe only means tenth. It was a mathematical term in KJV days. It was not a special word with any spiritual meaning. It was just math. The Hebrew word in the text means tenth.
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Post by Giller on Sept 3, 2019 8:46:05 GMT -5
I do not see the tithe either as coming over to the New Covenant, and concerning Abraham tithing to Melchizedek, it was a tenth of his spoils gotten in war that he gave, and not a tenth of what he had. Heb 7:4 (4) Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. It shows he had a conscience to tithe, and if he tithed here, it stands to reason he did at other times. This was not to support the Levitical priesthood. I agree that this specific tithe was not to support the Levitical priesthood.
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Post by John on Sept 3, 2019 8:52:14 GMT -5
I understand that the word tithe means tenth or 10 percent, but why that amount? Why did Abraham give 10 percent to Melchizedek?
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 3, 2019 8:55:49 GMT -5
The Levite tithe was a personal covenant between Jacob/Israel and God. And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Lord be my God: And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee. — Genesis 28:20-22We don’t know if he got this idea from Abraham or what. But Jacob initiated this covenant. So in order to fulfill it, the Levite tribe was given to the Lord, and a tenth of all food/raiment was given to the Lord in perpetuity. Hebrews tells us this covenant has been fulfilled. When Malachi said Israel robbed God, it’s because they broke this promise from Jacob. God wasn’t confiscating 10% of Israel’s goods under threat of a curse; He had been promised those goods by Jacob Himself. That’s why it was robbery. That is possibly the reason for why the tithe came to be, but people that didn't make that agreement personally, were still required to give 10 percent to God under threat of curse. It was going to come on them if they didn't give 10 percent wasn't it? It is like the sin curse we have to deal with. We didn't eat the forbidden fruit, yet we all come under the curses from Adam and Eve's transgression. This is another example of tithing before the law, and it also gives more evidence that the principal of tithing existed all along. It is very likely that Jacob was only promising to do what he knew was right from the beginning if God met his needs.
What I’m saying is, God didn’t set out from day one telling people, give Me 10% or I’ll smite you. Neither Abraham nor Jacob said they had to do it for fear of being smited. Abraham honored God’s role in a victory by counting Him among the soldiers. Jacob later made a personal offer for a covenant with God. There is no evidence — pure speculation — that either man did this under duress because they “knew they had to.” We see other places in Scripture where people offered to bless the Lord by doing more than He asked. The Lord told David He hadn’t demanded a temple. The Lord gave Solomon two offers, and He was pleased that Solomon chose the better. Sometimes it really is possible to bless the Lord above and beyond what He expected. Not everything those saints did was under duress. Israel was expected to uphold the covenant in perpetuity, and in one sense you might say that’s unfair, but the covenant was not in record as being God’s demand. He didn’t demand it from Adam. It wasn’t included in Adam’s curse. It wasn’t automatically how life worked because God said so. It was a covenant with Jacob.
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Post by Giller on Sept 3, 2019 8:58:24 GMT -5
Heb 7:1 (1) For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Gen 14:17-18 (17) And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale. (18) And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 3, 2019 9:09:32 GMT -5
I understand that the word tithe means tenth or 10 percent, but why that amount? Why did Abraham give 10 percent to Melchizedek?
We have no idea why Abraham chose 10%. Perhaps he shared portions with nine other men. Perhaps there were 19 other men and Melchesezek got a double portion. Scripture doesn’t give us the logic begin the tenth. It’s one of those things that only God knows which He would have to spiritually reveal to His church.
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Post by John on Sept 3, 2019 9:20:28 GMT -5
I tend to think this is going to come down to each person having to be fully persuaded in their own mind. All we have is the Law of Moses, a couple of example of tithing before the law, Jesus' comments to the Pharisees and a strong rebuke by Malachi at a time when the storehouse was the Temple. Obviously, I lean in the direction of tithing, but admit even with the evidence I can see, there remains some reasonable doubt.
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Post by Giller on Sept 3, 2019 9:34:38 GMT -5
Heb 7:1 (1) For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Gen 14:17-18 (17) And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale. (18) And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
I find there is something very interesting here, you notice that it was Melchisedec that went out to meet Abraham, and it was after Abraham had finished off with having a war with other kings.
There has to be something to this, about meeting after a war.
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Post by John on Sept 3, 2019 9:39:54 GMT -5
One other comment I want to make about tithing. Most of the preachers like Ed Young will call you a thief if you don't tithe, while calling people a Pharisee and a legalist for preaching against obvious sins like fornication. We know they are covetous. They don't care if you rob God, anymore than they care about whether or not you get drunk on Saturday and sleep around. They just want your money so they can get more wealth, so I don't take any of those ministers serious. I care about what God thinks, but not people like that.
I have been around people that spent all their time preaching on Sunday Sabbath keeping and tithing, and I was called a legalist for things like not believing in tattoos and believing women should not wear what pertains to a man. It is one thing to simply have an honest disagreement, but if you are going to spend your time promoting something like Sunday Sabbath keeping and tithing when we do so, not based on any Biblical proof, but evidence, they are hypocritical to call me a Pharisee or legalistic for taking positions based on evidence. But again, we know why they do it in those areas. It is self serving.
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