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Post by Abby-Joy on Sept 6, 2018 14:26:08 GMT -5
Sister Lights, since you asked, I will address you personally....
I have agreed with you on many things, but the thing about this entire subject is that you insist that 100% of the time, your interpretation of certain Scriptures (to the exclusion of others that I posted - as opposed to taking them all together to compete the picture) is the correct interpretation and that anyone who disagrees has not listened to Holy Spirit. On this particular subject which you brought up, you asked me a question and I replied according to what I believe, based in Scripture. In other words, I took not only those 2 or 3 verses you presented, but many others in other places in the Bible... and with those, I was able to see more clearly what was meant by those 2 or 3 other verses.
ALL of Scripture should be considered, not just a few to support a particular desired viewpoint or doctrine. I don't mean that to sound hateful. It is just very frustrating to me. When I want an answer to something, I search it out with much prayer, and want to see all the Lord wants me to see within His Word. I can't take 2 or 3 verses and make a doctrine of it when there are many more that state something seemingly opposite. Knowing that the Word of God does not oppose or contradict itself, then I can't just ignore the Scriptures that seem to say something different. I must be willing to look at all of it, and pray for wisdom to know what the whole picture is. Do you see what I'm saying?
As per your questions, I agree with what others have already answered. But here are my answers. (They may resemble what others already stated.)
1. How do you know for certain that anything you know from the Bible is actually correct and not just a matter of your best guess or opinion? I personally am not comfortable with "best guesses" ... if I don't know something, I admit I don't know it. But I will seek the Lord to reveal to me what He wants me to know from His Word, and I do that on a continual basis. When He shows me something, there is a settled-ness and a peace about it. That is not to say that He might not show me more indepth later on down the road... because that's generally how He works.
2. Can anyone know anything that the Bible teaches with absolute certainty? How? As our brother John John stated, many things are stated very clearly in the Bible and you really have to work hard to misinterpret it. But for the things that aren't clearly stated, I believe our Lord intends us to search them out and seek Him. I'm not sure if that's what you're asking though.
3. Do you know objective Scriptural truth that other Christians you know do not know or believe? Any truth at all? If so, are you arrogant for stating the fact or overconfident for maintaining your position on that truth that you know? Of course. I think that any person who has been walking with the Lord for a good while, will grow in knowledge and understanding. It isn't a matter of arrogance at all... for one, they are usually things pertaining to personal growth and two, I don't push things on my brothers and sisters that I have been shown. I may share it if I feel prompted by Holy Spirit. But they may or may not see it at that point... even if I obeyed Him in sharing it. But it's not up to me to push it. I'm just to obey His leading. If they don't "get it" or don't see or receive it, then I leave it be and pray. It's not up to me to insist that they see what I do. If the person I shared with doesn't get it, I don't see them as unsaved or rebellious. I know that it may be that Holy Spirit wanted me to open the door and speak it, and that later, that seed will be watered and He will bring them to understanding in His time. Sister, when we share things we feel are from the Lord, we ought to do so in humility. We are not perfect. There may be some things that we don't fully understand about some things that we feel confident about.
ALSO... have I ever been wrong about something I thought I knew? Yes, I have. It was usually things that I was immature in, or else I hadn't studied out fully. But there are many things I do not know. And I can say with confidence that there are many things that you do not know. None of us know it all. I'm not a person who speaks hastily about things. I observe a lot, pray a lot, and ask the Lord a lot of questions. The whole point about learning is that there are things we do not know, or things we understand in part that Holy Spirit will reveal in His time.
Mark 13:11 (KJV) But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
I hope I answered as tactfully and respectfully as possible. I don't think this needs to be carried on and on. Hopefully, we can get past this ....somehow...
I agree with your responses to the questions. I think I said before that I do consider what other people post, and provide Scripture and explanation for why I believe what I believe. I don't generally just dismiss what other people say; my responses tend to be very lengthy and sometimes take me several hours to write, to be thorough and accurate, proof-reading, etc.
Obviously I cannot do this for every person, or I would never leave the computer, and I have other responsibilities. Also, when it becomes apparent that the other person doesn't agree with something that I know to be true, I do leave it to the Lord to show it to them, which is the only way that any of us can know with certainty that what we believe the Scriptures teach is actually correct. I'm constantly recommending to others how to know the truth about what they read, because I want them to know, not because I want people to believe what I believe. If what I believe is correct, I certainly hope they do come to know that truth also. If I'm wrong, I want to know it.
I've been wrong about things that I have believed and I continue to grow in understanding about things, like any Christian. But when I do know for certain that the Scriptures teach something, I can't accept error from someone else who believes that what they are presenting is correct, even if they have a lot of Scripture to support it.
You can go back to the example I gave in my response to Butero about the teaching of Calvinism. The same is true for many things. And if one Christian happens to know more truth about a number of things in Scripture than others do, even if others believe that what they believe is correct, and the one who knows more maintains his or her position on that truth, it's inevitable, I think, that the one who knows more will be considered an arrogant, close-minded know-it-all, when that's not actually the case.
Perhaps my maintaining my position on the truth that I do know and countering what I know to be false makes me seem to others like I'm forcing my beliefs on them, not open to anyone else's point of view, and that I'm proud and unloving. I don't really know what to say to that. If I state that something is a false teaching, and it actually is, but nobody else on the forum knows it but me---what am I to say? (Again, go back to the example I gave in my response to Butero.)
I'm not a perfect judge of myself, but as far as I can discern myself, I avoid and crucify pride. But confidence and pride are not the same thing, and sometimes---maybe even oftentimes---pride is a matter of perception rather than reality. Probably because we all are proud naturally so we tend to assume that other people are, even if they aren't.
There are many things that I do not say anything about, because I don't think it would be beneficial to the other person for me to address what I know is incorrect or to share what I know is true. Sometimes the truth is better withheld for the sake of love and peace, and praying for the other person is the better choice, as you said. Not everyone is in a spiritual place to receive certain truths, and I'm no exception. God knows what each of us is ready for. So I try to follow His lead to the best of my discernment with regard to what I address and how or whether I say anything at all. I'm certainly not perfect in this way, but I'm doing the best I can and I'm sure I will continue to improve.
And just for the record, I consider all Scripture in both its immediate context and in the greater context of the collective Scriptures which relate to a subject. I don't take verses out of context and weave a doctrinal belief around them.
I'm also very glad to hear about your practice in studying the Scriptures:
When I want an answer to something, I search it out with much prayer, and want to see all the Lord wants me to see within His Word. I can't take 2 or 3 verses and make a doctrine of it when there are many more that state something seemingly opposite. Knowing that the Word of God does not oppose or contradict itself, then I can't just ignore the Scriptures that seem to say something different. I must be willing to look at all of it, and pray for wisdom to know what the whole picture is.
That's a great practice. I do the same thing. Even with this practice, none of us can know a truth except that God also gives us the correct and complete understanding of it. We might think that a particular Scripture or Scriptures refers or relates to a certain thing when in fact it doesn't and is unrelated. Also, we might understand the teaching but not the point of the teaching. This is the work of the Holy Spirit to show us.
Thanks for your response.
Thank you also for your response. The thing is, sister lights, is that I know beyond a shadow of doubt that my stance is Biblical, as I have taken into consideration many instances in the Word of God that help give broader insight into those 2 or 3 other verses. But it's okay that you don't see it. We can move on.
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 6, 2018 16:02:02 GMT -5
I think I will add this:
We all know that the history of Christianity is one of division, pretty much from the beginning. Paul had to address it with the church in Corinth. If everyone was teaching the same thing, how could there have been any division? Listening to one teacher would have been the same as listening to another, because they would have all had the same doctrine. Every church would have been teaching the same things, whether one was in this city or that city.
Theologically, Christianity is probably still pretty much the same no matter where you go. The doctrinal statement of most every evangelical Christian church is probably very similar. But it's when you get into the practical teachings of the faith that things go every which way; and these, from what I know, are the primary things that Christians have been divided over for centuries---not theology. What this means and what that means, how this should be done and how that should be done.
So, since we know from the Scriptures that it is NOT God's purpose or ideal for Christians to be divided over doctrine, what are each of us going to do to try to achieve His ideal? That's what I would like each of the members here to ask themselves and to seriously consider, because division is FAILURE in God's eyes. So is strife. That is not His desire. If God wants us to be united in understanding and practice; and since He is the one who supplies our understanding, then it's not impossible to achieve---at least more than it has been historically. I would imagine that many churches split because of the very same things that we are experiencing here, because they didn't know how to unify or were unwilling to do so.
I believe one reason for division is that Christians don't have the discernment to know what is important and what to insist upon and what not to. So they may insist upon something that would be better left to the individual to judge (like insisting that all women dress in a certain uniform or that all the men wear beards), making disputable matters of personal faith into laws. That makes people who don't agree with the laws leave. There are some things that should be left to God to reveal the truth to the individual about, and not insisted upon, as Romans chapter 14 explains.
Another reason may be that they don't know how to walk in love, which relates to the above---not insisting on their own way instead of making concessions for things that aren't fundamental in order to maintain unity while others grow in their knowledge of the truth. Each side insists that his or her way or understanding about something is right, and instead of the ones who know what is correct letting the others grow in their understanding, they tell them they have to either agree or get out.
The problem with this is that if a person leaves because of one matter of doctrine that he or she doesn't agree with, he or she will also miss out on other good things that are being taught that he or she might be able to receive. So it would have been better for the person to stay and learn what they could learn than to leave and miss out on everything.
On the flip side, division can arise from one group of people deciding to relax or abandon doctrine and others wanting to keep it as it is in the Scriptures. The people who want be more liberal in their interpretation and practices might just leave because they don't like the doctrine. In which case, it's better to let them go than to compromise the doctrine. That would be a case of a necessary division.
When to divide and when to stay united depends on knowing what to stand on and what to leave to the individual and the Lord. I believe that in general, it's better to stand on the doctrine and let the people go---if the people have a loosey-goosey attitude about Scripture and it's apparent that they want to indulge their sinful nature and be like the world in its ways. Because if you keep people like that, they'll just want more and more: "Get rid of this; bend that." Trying to keep people with bad hearts in a fellowship for the sake of love and peace is like leaven for the rest of the lump.
Another reason for division is probably stubbornness; people just being set in their ways and not willing to change. They may have a tradition based on some interpretation of Scripture and they force other people to do that thing in order to stay in the group. ("This is the way we've always done things and this is what our group believes. Anything else is wrong.") People who find reason to disagree with the tradition or interpretation of the group because it doesn't agree with Scripture may leave if the group doesn't change its practice or teaching.
Another reason is probably pride; not being teachable. If a person thinks they can't be wrong about anything, or that they know everything (and I think this is probably a big problem with pastors, and probably especially with older ones), and when they are shown that they are in error about something but aren't willing to admit it or change, people may leave. Or he may put people who disagree with him out of the fellowship.
So...all of that having been said, what do we do to change the pattern of division and to achieve the true unity of the faith that God desires? I think every one of us really needs to consider this for ourselves, and keep it in mind in our interactions here---that that is God's ultimate desire, for us to be united in the knowledge of His doctrine, and living, preaching and teaching that as one, and building each other up with the same doctrine. I think we all need to consider very carefully that we should be trying to do and to achieve what Jesus Christ wants here---and that's more than preaching the gospel. Christians don't need to hear the gospel; they need to hear sound doctrine and to be reminded of that.
Agreeing to disagree on everything won't achieve the unity of the faith. It will achieve peace, but peace is not unity in like-mindedness and that kind of peace doesn't actually improve fellowship, which depends on like-mindedness based on God's truth (doctrine): It's more like silent, polite division than it is actual unity.
Compromising doctrine won't do it either. The unity of the faith is based on knowing and agreeing upon doctrine, not compromising it (which is apostasy).
In my opinion, both division and agreeing to disagree on doctrine should be the last resort, not the first choice. There are disputable matters of personal faith that should be left alone to the individual and God, but all of the practical doctrine in the New Testament is not a disputable matter of personal faith: You do what you do and believe what you believe, I'll do what I do and believe what I believe, and we won't talk about that subject (and no, I am not specifically speaking about tongues). The Scriptural truth that comprises Christian doctrine is not subjective.
We need to consider what the purpose of Christian fellowship is from a Biblical perspective, and what the Lord's objectives for Christians are, and to pursue these with one another. I've given my advice for how to do this here on this thread. Obviously what Christians have been doing for centuries hasn't been working, whatever they've been doing; and doing the same things here will produce the same results---even if the people themselves stay. (Silent, polite division is not unity.)
I'm opening the floor to other practical suggestions from others for achieving the unity of the faith. (Please try to base your advice on what the Scriptures teach about this.) This is something that involves everyone here, and it's about achieving what God wants, according to His word, doing what is best for ourselves and each other according to the will of Jesus Christ, not just achieving peace. Achieving the unity that God intended and desires for the faith will require humility, patience, diligence and love; but isn't it worth the effort?
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Sept 6, 2018 16:45:38 GMT -5
tlsitdNot that I want people to quarrel (I do not), but I do want to encourage them to be serious about knowing as much truth about Christian doctrine as possible---and I don't just mean its theology---because God does take it extremely seriously (more seriously than most Christians realize), and because what we believe the Scriptures teach affects how we practice the faith (more or less pleasing to God) and also how discerning we are, about the will of God and about what is and what is not of Him. Its statements like these that make me stop reading your posts. Like you are saying the way I am doing it is better. discrediting what other people say when they share thier part of Christ is not good, and its not fellowship and if you are going to do this after i already put my heart out there once and you offered nothing in reply, I cannot accept that there will be fellowship of reconciliation. The reason I said what i said is because there is a big part your posts leave out... which is how to achieve that holiness. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 6, 2018 17:14:50 GMT -5
I'm opening the floor to other practical suggestions from others for achieving the unity of the faith. What do you want us to agree with you?
Please, do it if you can.
I really am not seeing a big hurdle to fellowship with you. But please, help!
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 6, 2018 17:15:19 GMT -5
tlsitd Not that I want people to quarrel (I do not), but I do want to encourage them to be serious about knowing as much truth about Christian doctrine as possible---and I don't just mean its theology---because God does take it extremely seriously (more seriously than most Christians realize), and because what we believe the Scriptures teach affects how we practice the faith (more or less pleasing to God) and also how discerning we are, about the will of God and about what is and what is not of Him. Its statements like these that make me stop reading your posts. Like you are saying the way I am doing it is better. discrediting what other people say when they share thier part of Christ is not good, and its not fellowship and if you are going to do this after i already put my heart out there once and you offered nothing in reply, I cannot accept that there will be fellowship of reconciliation. The reason I said what i said is because there is a big part your posts leave out... which is how to achieve that holiness. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Brother, I explained in a previous post why I do not reply to every post. Do you realize how much time that would take, seeing as how I sometimes spend hours on a single reply? Plus, if I've said all that I have to say about it and it's obvious that the other person and I do not agree, there isn't more to say about it unless one of us comes to a different understanding by studying the Scriptures and asking God to teach us the truth. Otherwise, we'll just keep going back and forth with Scripture and not achieving anything. I can tell you what the Scriptures teach about how to achieve holiness. Or you can tell me what the Scriptures teach about how to achieve holiness. I have said quite a lot about how achieve holiness in several of my posts. But what I asked for in my last post on this thread was suggestions for how to achieve the unity of the faith here, which isn't unrelated to holiness but isn't exactly the same. You're offended by my position on glossolalia, as are many here. I get that. It's not something I don't care about. But there's really nothing I can do about that if I don't believe that the Scriptures teach that the gift and manifestation of tongues (or other languages) is glossolalia. I'm not going to change my position based on people's feelings, or based on misapplied and misinterpreted Scripture which I know to be misapplied and misinterpreted, even if someone else does not. I don't do that for any doctrine. Do you understand what I'm saying? And as for the Scripture at the end of your post---about using the grace of God given to one to minister to others---I'm not seeing how that ties into this subject. Feel free to explain.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 6, 2018 17:21:13 GMT -5
I can tell you what the Scriptures teach about how to achieve holiness. Or you can tell me what the Scriptures teach about how to achieve holiness. The thing is:
There are many ways of how to achieve holiness.
And all of them must be by faith in the Word, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
I could tell you many ways you could achieve holiness, but reading the Word and believing it is the core of it.
Can you understand why agreeing in microscopic level is not always possible?!
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 6, 2018 17:22:09 GMT -5
I'm opening the floor to other practical suggestions from others for achieving the unity of the faith. What do you want us to agree with you?
Please, do it if you can.
I really am not seeing a big hurdle to fellowship with you. But please, help!What I asked was whether anyone had any other suggestions besides the suggestion I gave in the OP about how to achieve greater unity here at Narrow Way by how we interact with each other, based on what the Scriptures teach about what God's desires are with regard to unity between Christians. (Ephesians 4:13-15)
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 6, 2018 17:29:01 GMT -5
What I asked was whether anyone had any other suggestions besides the suggestion I gave in the OP about how to achieve greater unity here at Narrow Way by how we interact with each other, based on what the Scriptures teach about what God's desires are with regard to unity between Christians. (Ephesians 4:13-15) OK, you have an idea of what a prophet is or does. And I agree, but I just do not limit it in the way you say.
But it seems that you are simply reluctant to accept my views and adding what a prophet is or does on top of yours.
Then, I am stuck with your view and interpretation of what a prophet is or does.
Are you understanding what I am saying?!
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Post by John on Sept 6, 2018 17:30:06 GMT -5
tlsitd Not that I want people to quarrel (I do not), but I do want to encourage them to be serious about knowing as much truth about Christian doctrine as possible---and I don't just mean its theology---because God does take it extremely seriously (more seriously than most Christians realize), and because what we believe the Scriptures teach affects how we practice the faith (more or less pleasing to God) and also how discerning we are, about the will of God and about what is and what is not of Him. Its statements like these that make me stop reading your posts. Like you are saying the way I am doing it is better. discrediting what other people say when they share thier part of Christ is not good, and its not fellowship and if you are going to do this after i already put my heart out there once and you offered nothing in reply, I cannot accept that there will be fellowship of reconciliation. The reason I said what i said is because there is a big part your posts leave out... which is how to achieve that holiness. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Brother, I explained in a previous post why I do not reply to every post. Do you realize how much time that would take, seeing as how I sometimes spend hours on a single reply? Plus, if I've said all that I have to say about it and it's obvious that the other person and I do not agree, there isn't more to say about it unless one of us comes to a different understanding by studying the Scriptures and asking God to teach us the truth. Otherwise, we'll just keep going back and forth with Scripture and not achieving anything. I can tell you what the Scriptures teach about how to achieve holiness. Or you can tell me what the Scriptures teach about how to achieve holiness. I have said quite a lot about how achieve holiness in several of my posts. But what I asked for in my last post on this thread was suggestions for how to achieve the unity of the faith here, which isn't unrelated to holiness but isn't exactly the same. You're offended by my position on glossolalia, as are many here. I get that. It's not something I don't care about. But there's really nothing I can do about that if I don't believe that the Scriptures teach that the gift and manifestation of tongues (or other languages) is glossolalia. I'm not going to change my position based on people's feelings, or based on misapplied and misinterpreted Scripture which I know to be misapplied and misinterpreted, even if someone else does not. I don't do that for any doctrine. Do you understand what I'm saying? And as for the Scripture at the end of your post---about using the grace of God given to one to minister to others---I'm not seeing how that ties into this subject. Feel free to explain. I don't know if you recognize you are doing this or not Lights, but let me show you something about your last response. Lets suppose we were discussing tongues, and I came back at you this way...
The issue of tongues is so important, that I went to the trouble of posting scripture proving that tongues in the book of Acts is the initial evidence of receiving the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, and that it is a prayer language, not the gift of tongues and interpretation. I am sorry that you are unable to see that, simply because you are misusing scripture and always misapplying it based on what has to be doctrinal errors from past churches or personal feelings because you never spoke in tongues.
That is a pretty rough response isn't it? Wouldn't that make you feel bad, and like the other person is kind of arrogant and condescending? It is your error. It is you misapplying scripture. It is all on you to change, because the other person knows they are right. I am absolutely convinced you are wrong on the issue of tongues. That is not going to change. I did give scripture to back me up, a lot more than you did. Did you even look at it? Even though I am convinced you are wrong, does that mean that unless we can come to unity, which means you seeing it my way, we can't have fellowship? I don't feel that way, but you must make up your own mind about me and everyone else with a disagreement.
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Post by John on Sept 6, 2018 17:32:36 GMT -5
Here is my suggestion about trying to come to the truth on different issues that divide us. Start a thread on the topic. Use scripture to get your point across and explain why you see things as you do. Let the other person do the same and have a back and forth. That will help in the way of understanding. I can't guarantee it will cause everyone to agree, but if the evidence is overwhelming, perhaps it will.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2018 17:41:52 GMT -5
<< (I do honestly feel like I'm speaking a foreign language sometimes.) >>
Me too sister, me too. It does seem we're not hearing each other very well, so will just have to leave it at that. You be blessed.
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Post by John on Sept 6, 2018 17:50:43 GMT -5
I did want to bring up one other point. Most of us are having fellowship and getting along just fine in spite of doctrinal differences. I am all for seeking the truth and trying to reconcile differences, but not so we can have fellowship, but so we can grow closer to God. You all don't have to agree with everything I believe for us to have fellowship, and I always believe I am right or I wouldn't say something. Who would come on here and deliberately teach something they know is false? We all believe we are right and God taught.
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PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 6, 2018 18:05:12 GMT -5
Hello everyone. Including tlsitd. You're still my sister in Christ. The thing I want more than anything else is for us to grow and learn together as we all draw closer to our meeting with the Lord. If I may attempt to answer your challenge for practical guidelines... And yes, some of these are shots at myself... -- Two people disagree on a doctrinal issue. Both have Scriptures they brought to the table with a decent amount of thoughtfulness. Both seem genuine. They are genuinely looking through two different prisms. Someone is wrong, but it's a draw to say who. Option 1: I showed you the truth, but you're a petulant child who won't listen. (this is humorous hyperbole) Option 2: Your walk with the Lord and your life experience have led you to that conclusion, and I get it. You are resistant to fall for whims of doctrinal teaching you just heard about it, and I get it. We won't agree on this today. But perhaps allow me to show you the fruit of this teaching over time. You can show me your fruit, and together we'll see which teaching leads to better faith. -- Someone writes a scathing critique of my position, but I'm about to run out the door. Option 1: Skip over it in favor of something more important two hours later. Option 2: Quote the post with a short sentence to say, "hey I did see this and I want to reply, but I'm not sure when." -- I have to tell someone a fact which I know will set them off like a roman candle. Option 1: Here's where you're wrong. Option 2: So much of what you say is amazingly insightful. I've really come to admire the way you think. Surely you're brave enough to chew on this fact. -- The argument is edging toward personal judgment. Option 1: Forget everything you've said here that was brave and insightful for the past six months; I conclude that you are worldly. Option 2: Let me remember that thread last week when you went to the mat to defend me. Your friendship does mean something. I will resist the urge to insult you. -- Someone is using irresponsible words that hurt people when they're not meaning to. Option 1: How dare you call me that! Option 2: Maybe you don't know how that sounds when it leaves your mouth. -- Someone is totally, painfully wrong about an issue. Option 1: You're a liability. Option 2: Would the damage from your exit hurt more than letting you stay? -- Two people cannot reach a consensus. Option 1: Go to your prayer closet and get a clue. (this is humorous) Option 2: Let's meet in chat, or even on the phone, and actually pray together about unity on this thing. Maybe God will move with a prophetic word or something to break the stalemate.
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Post by tlsitd on Sept 6, 2018 18:05:54 GMT -5
Brother, I explained in a previous post why I do not reply to every post. Do you realize how much time that would take, seeing as how I sometimes spend hours on a single reply? Plus, if I've said all that I have to say about it and it's obvious that the other person and I do not agree, there isn't more to say about it unless one of us comes to a different understanding by studying the Scriptures and asking God to teach us the truth. Otherwise, we'll just keep going back and forth with Scripture and not achieving anything. I can tell you what the Scriptures teach about how to achieve holiness. Or you can tell me what the Scriptures teach about how to achieve holiness. I have said quite a lot about how achieve holiness in several of my posts. But what I asked for in my last post on this thread was suggestions for how to achieve the unity of the faith here, which isn't unrelated to holiness but isn't exactly the same. You're offended by my position on glossolalia, as are many here. I get that. It's not something I don't care about. But there's really nothing I can do about that if I don't believe that the Scriptures teach that the gift and manifestation of tongues (or other languages) is glossolalia. I'm not going to change my position based on people's feelings, or based on misapplied and misinterpreted Scripture which I know to be misapplied and misinterpreted, even if someone else does not. I don't do that for any doctrine. Do you understand what I'm saying? And as for the Scripture at the end of your post---about using the grace of God given to one to minister to others---I'm not seeing how that ties into this subject. Feel free to explain. I don't know if you recognize you are doing this or not Lights, but let me show you something about your last response. Lets suppose we were discussing tongues, and I came back at you this way...
The issue of tongues is so important, that I went to the trouble of posting scripture proving that tongues in the book of Acts is the initial evidence of receiving the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, and that it is a prayer language, not the gift of tongues and interpretation. I am sorry that you are unable to see that, simply because you are misusing scripture and always misapplying it based on what has to be doctrinal errors from past churches or personal feelings because you never spoke in tongues.
That is a pretty rough response isn't it? Wouldn't that make you feel bad, and like the other person is kind of arrogant and condescending? It is your error. It is you misapplying scripture. It is all on you to change, because the other person knows they are right. I am absolutely convinced you are wrong on the issue of tongues. That is not going to change. I did give scripture to back me up, a lot more than you did. Did you even look at it? Even though I am convinced you are wrong, does that mean that unless we can come to unity, which means you seeing it my way, we can't have fellowship? I don't feel that way, but you must make up your own mind about me and everyone else with a disagreement.
I see what you're saying. But I don't really know what the alternative is, except to say nothing at all. My reason for stating that a Scripture is misinterpreted or misapplied is because I know that it is, not because I'm being condescending. It would seem that way to a person who doesn't agree with me. If someone is wrong about something, I don't think that telling them so is mean (unless it's done with pride or malice or rudeness, which is not always easy to tell on a computer screen). I would imagine you tell people they are incorrect about various things, and some of them probably get upset when you do. That's sort of unavoidable. Even if you're as sweet as pie telling someone they're incorrect or deceived about something, it's going to smart. (You can refer back to the example I gave in my original response to you on this thread.) It's not as if I don't read what others post, but if they're posting the same Scriptures that I just responded to in another person's post and it took me three hours to reply to the last one, they're not likely to get a response from me. Most people have never prophesied. Does that mean that anyone who has never prophesied cannot judge a person who claims to be a prophet based on what the Scriptures teach about that gift? No. Most people are not apostles. Does that mean that they cannot judge apostles by what the Scriptures teach? No. Most people are not pastors. Does that mean that anyone who has never been a pastor cannot judge a pastor based on what the Scriptures teach about pastors? Obviously God knows that not all people have all gifts. He gave us His word as the standard by which to test all things, regardless of whether we personally have the gift or not. Anyway, that is why I suggested what I suggested in the OP, which as yet I don't believe anyone has added anything to in the way of practical suggestions. There is really only one way to come to agreement on fundamental doctrinal issues, which I believe spiritual gifts---the definition and use of them---is one of, because of how it affects other things, and that is for each of us to re-study the Scriptures carefully, without bias, with a good conscience toward the Lord, and without pride as far as we can discern ourselves, and ask God to give us the correct understanding of whatever subject it is. Hopefully He will, and whichever of us is wrong will come to see it. Until then, there really isn't any other option except to have cautious and delicate fellowship avoiding the issues upon which we don't agree. That's not ideal, obviously, and the point of the OP was that the fewer of these obstacles there are, by all parties being in agreement on the truth of what God's word actually teaches, the better the fellowship will be. It's possible to have fellowship with potholes, but the more of them there are, the harder it is, because sooner or later, you're going to hit one. And if you try to avoid them all, there's not that much you can say.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 6, 2018 18:06:03 GMT -5
We all believe we are right and God taught. "It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me." - John 6:45
"All your children shall be taught by the Lord, And great shall be the peace of your children." - Isaiah 54:13
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